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View Poll Results: Do you think Tulsa's a smale scale Portland?
Yes 12 10.00%
No 108 90.00%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-09-2012, 02:19 PM
 
Location: IN
20,863 posts, read 35,992,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere View Post
Lower COL, more sunshine, and some people prefer to live in smaller cities.
How is more sunshine good when it goes along with 100-115F summer air temperatures in combination with a very high solar declination angle? I can only be outside there a very short period of time without using sunscreen during the warmer months. Lower COL is debatable as Oklahoma has some of the worst pay and salaries of any state in the US- even for professions that are supposed to be well paid.

The best state in the South is Virginia because it offers the best job growth, income growth, in-migration, educational attainment increases, of any state in the US with a moderate COL.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:17 PM
 
Location: MPLS
1,068 posts, read 1,096,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
Great post defending Tulsa.

It really all comes down to Portland currently being a media darling and a favorite for young people and Tulsa only getting national attention for something negative such as a right-wing politician saying something crazy. Hipsterdom is all the rage right now and Portland is a hipster capital. I still think Portland is a superior city but Tulsa isn't as bad as people make it seem.
It's not a coincidence that Portland is enjoying media attention and popular among younger people. It's not so about hipsters as it is about liberalism in general and quality of urban living. Portland offers high quality urban living, I'd argue, because it's so liberal. You can see this reflected in the built environment: there's much more fun and creative stuff to do, a live and let live attitude, they value mass transit, being healthy and smarter, not sitting inside all day at home or in a car, the list goes on. Liberalism dominates the local culture whereas in Tulsa it's a minority segment of the population.

This helps explain why, despite Tulsa having half the metro size of Portland it falls well below offering 1/2 of what the Portland metro does. It's not 100% perfect, but look at the urban amenities on Yelp for Portland vs Tulsa and you'll see that the gaps are so very large. Tulsa would need to triple its number of restaurants, add 6x as many bars, and add more than 12x the current retail just to offer half of what the Portland area does. It's hard to do that when the city has conservative anti-urban policies overall: the city doesn't promote urban development city-wide and good walkability, mass transit, and bikeability all of which contributes to why Portland offers so much and all of which is much more accessible.

Without lots of solid urban neighborhoods for such amenities to exist there's nowhere for such amenities to spread. Walkscore shows that urban Tulsa has 2/3 the population of Portland but only 16% of its urban neighborhoods are highly walkable: the area that most resembles anything in Portland, while Portland is 57% highly walkable citywide. That means for Tulsa to be considered a smaller Portland it would need to at least double its walkability, like now. Unless liberal Tulsans make huge strides very soon, the local culture has made it clear that most Tulsans don't share the same kind of values that Portland does. If anything, Tulsa is an anti-Portland stronghold.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mplsite View Post
It's not a coincidence that Portland is enjoying media attention and popular among younger people. It's not so about hipsters as it is about liberalism in general and quality of urban living. Portland offers high quality urban living, I'd argue, because it's so liberal. You can see this reflected in the built environment: there's much more fun and creative stuff to do, a live and let live attitude, they value mass transit, being healthy and smarter, not sitting inside all day at home or in a car, the list goes on. Liberalism dominates the local culture whereas in Tulsa it's a minority segment of the population.

This helps explain why, despite Tulsa having half the metro size of Portland it falls well below offering 1/2 of what the Portland metro does. It's not 100% perfect, but look at the urban amenities on Yelp for Portland vs Tulsa and you'll see that the gaps are so very large. Tulsa would need to triple its number of restaurants, add 6x as many bars, and add more than 12x the current retail just to offer half of what the Portland area does. It's hard to do that when the city has conservative anti-urban policies overall: the city doesn't promote urban development city-wide and good walkability, mass transit, and bikeability all of which contributes to why Portland offers so much and all of which is much more accessible.

Without lots of solid urban neighborhoods for such amenities to exist there's nowhere for such amenities to spread. Walkscore shows that urban Tulsa has 2/3 the population of Portland but only 16% of its urban neighborhoods are highly walkable: the area that most resembles anything in Portland, while Portland is 57% highly walkable citywide. That means for Tulsa to be considered a smaller Portland it would need to at least double its walkability, like now. Unless liberal Tulsans make huge strides very soon, the local culture has made it clear that most Tulsans don't share the same kind of values that Portland does. If anything, Tulsa is an anti-Portland stronghold.
Here is a great article on the subject of Portland and young people.

Is Portland really where young people retire? - Yahoo! Finance

Most people who move to Portland end up underemployed and living in a small apartment with several roommates. It's the epitome of "occupy" culture. I have several high school and college classmates who moved to Portland or Seattle and its the same story.

What it really comes down to is media hype. Portland is a media darling while Tulsa is a media red-headed stepchild and always has been. The only time Oklahoma is ever gets national attention other than the Thunder is when a crazy religious right politician says something they shouldn't and then suddenly that represents ALL Oklahomans.

Portland is in the news all the time for how great it is, especially for young people, despite the fact it's one of the worst cities for young people once job prospects are factored in.

The question for young people is this. Would you as an educated college graduate rather live somewhere like Portland and work a low-wage call center or service job and live in a small apartment with several roommates. Or would be able to forego things like "walkability" to live somewhere like Tulsa and be able to quickly own a home and have a job you are qualified for using your degree with advancement opportunities?
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,698 posts, read 23,692,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
Here is a great article on the subject of Portland and young people.

Is Portland really where young people retire? - Yahoo! Finance

Most people who move to Portland end up underemployed and living in a small apartment with several roommates. It's the epitome of "occupy" culture. I have several high school and college classmates who moved to Portland or Seattle and its the same story.

What it really comes down to is media hype. Portland is a media darling while Tulsa is a media red-headed stepchild and always has been. The only time Oklahoma is ever gets national attention other than the Thunder is when a crazy religious right politician says something they shouldn't and then suddenly that represents ALL Oklahomans.

Portland is in the news all the time for how great it is, especially for young people, despite the fact it's one of the worst cities for young people once job prospects are factored in.
You are quite right and I would carry the debate further with the previous poster but I promised myself not to respond to those who praise it to the skies based on what they read on the Internet or see on the news or a visit but have not had to live with the reality of trying to make a go of it here.

Best of luck to you trying to inject a bit of realism into the picture.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:33 PM
 
639 posts, read 940,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
How is more sunshine good when it goes along with 100-115F summer air temperatures in combination with a very high solar declination angle? I can only be outside there a very short period of time without using sunscreen during the warmer months. Lower COL is debatable as Oklahoma has some of the worst pay and salaries of any state in the US- even for professions that are supposed to be well paid.

The best state in the South is Virginia because it offers the best job growth, income growth, in-migration, educational attainment increases, of any state in the US with a moderate COL.
More sunshine is a good thing for someone with SADD. As I stated in other posts I'll take 100 degree temperatures, jungle humidity, bugginess, and desert dryness over a long gray, dreary, cloudy winter simply because I have a touch of SADD and eczema (UV exposure helps control eczema). But yes its subjective and variable, some people can't handle the heat and don't mind cloudiness as much.

Again I agree lower COL can be debatable in that places with low COL have lower salaries. From my experience, your money still goes further in a place with lower COL. I noticed this when I lived in San Diego compared Denver and Florida and when I thought about moving to Phoenix at one point.

I agree, the state of Virginia has a good future.

Last edited by ThinkingElsewhere; 12-09-2012 at 04:59 PM..
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:49 PM
 
Location: IN
20,863 posts, read 35,992,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere View Post
More sunshine is a good thing for someone with SADD. As I stated in other posts I'll take 100 degree temperatures, jungle humidity, bugginess, and desert dryness over a long gray, dreary, cloudy winter simply because I have a touch of SADD and eczema (UV exposure helps control eczema). But yes its subjective and variable, some people can't handle the heat and don't mind cloudiness as much.

Again I agree lower COL can be debatable in that places with low COL have lower salaries. From my experience, your money still goes further in a place with lower COL. I noticed this when I lived in San Diego compared Denver and Florida and when I thought about moving to Phoenix at one point.

I agree, the state of Virginia has a good future.
Your points are valid. One of the few items I dislike sometimes about living in the north is the occasional drab grey days in winter without any snow on the ground. That is not to my liking. However, if snowcover is present than I don't have issues at all. Extra Vitamin D supplements seem to work fine and I live in a community that values outdoor recreation, so lots of trails at my convenience. Not being close to decent skiing is a negative ATM. Mild temperatures during Spring, Summer, and Fall are huge and I'm outside all the time. Not so when I lived further south.

"Again I agree lower COL can be debatable in that places with low COL have lower salaries. From my experience, your money still goes further in a place with lower COL. I noticed this when I lived in San Diego compared Denver and Florida and when I thought about moving to Phoenix at one point."

One of my family members lives in Tulsa and is employed in the medical field. Salaries are higher in just about any metro area in the US REGARDLESS of COL. States like Oklahoma, Arkansas, Mississippi, Kentucky, etc think they can retain talent by paying them peanuts? It makes no sense to me. Salaries seem to be higher in metros like Nashville, Charlotte, Atlanta, NOVA, etc, with moderate COL. Perhaps that is why everyone is moving to those places
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
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This information is from the U.S. Census Bureau

Median Household Income
Portland: $50,177
Tulsa: $44,287

Charlotte: $53,146
Nashville: $46,141
Atlanta: $45,946

Most of these cities are higher than Tulsa in median household income but it's not like they blow it away. If you are an apartment owner, the difference in COL is quite a bit less but if you are a homeowner or looking to buy a home, that's where you'll see the real difference in COL. $125,000 can get you a pretty nice place in Oklahoma while in Charlotte it will get you a place in the ghetto. I am not sure how far $125,000 goes in Portland but real estate is probably far more expensive there than even in Charlotte. Maybe someone from Portland can chime in on that.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,698 posts, read 23,692,507 times
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$125,000 will not get you much in Portland. I have to admit from the get-go I am a life long renter so I am no expert on this but to my knowledge that amount will get you a forclosed small house in a so-so area and it is usually a fixer upper or a small condo in an okay neighborhood. If someone is looking to buy one of those popular craftsmen type homes in a popular neighborhood it will cost much, much more.

A friend who has a small three bedroom home in a nice neighborhood tells me the two bedroom ranch across the street from her sold not all that long ago for $250,000.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:46 PM
 
Location: IN
20,863 posts, read 35,992,597 times
Reputation: 13305
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
This information is from the U.S. Census Bureau

Median Household Income
Portland: $50,177
Tulsa: $44,287

Charlotte: $53,146
Nashville: $46,141
Atlanta: $45,946

Most of these cities are higher than Tulsa in median household income but it's not like they blow it away. If you are an apartment owner, the difference in COL is quite a bit less but if you are a homeowner or looking to buy a home, that's where you'll see the real difference in COL. $125,000 can get you a pretty nice place in Oklahoma while in Charlotte it will get you a place in the ghetto. I am not sure how far $125,000 goes in Portland but real estate is probably far more expensive there than even in Charlotte. Maybe someone from Portland can chime in on that.
One large reason why salaries will remain depressed in Tulsa is because younger demographics result in a labor surplus in skilled and unskilled categories alike. The highly static real estate market will not really appreciate in value over time. That is a big negative for those that may take a job transfer to just about any metro in the US that will be more expensive in RE costs. That is just the fact of the matter. Tulsa does not receive very much in-migration or out-migration and people stay put in houses for long periods of time. This lack of dynamism means statism for Tulsa, and the county has lost jobs overall in the past 10 years. While housing affordability is important, Tulsa has to offer more than cheap houses to convince younger people to stay.

Last edited by GraniteStater; 12-10-2012 at 07:09 PM..
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
7,946 posts, read 15,057,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
One large reason why salaries will remain depressed in Tulsa is because younger demographics result in a labor surplus in skilled and unskilled categories alike. The highly static real estate market will appreciate in value over time. That is a big negative for those that may take a job transfer to just about any metro in the US that will be more expensive in RE costs. That is just the fact of the matter. Tulsa does not receive very much in-migration or out-migration and people stay put in houses for long periods of time. This lack of dynamism means statism for Tulsa, and the county has lost jobs overall in the past 10 years. While housing affordability is important, Tulsa has to offer more than cheap houses to convince younger people to stay.
I highly doubt there is a labor surplus in Tulsa. There is likely a labor shortage. Unemployment is very low and finding a job is much easier than it is in the trendy cities like Portland. When I lived in Little Rock, which is a city that suffers from many of the same things Tulsa suffers from (the lack of a "cool" factor), the company I worked with would say they had a difficult time finding people to hire because there wasn't enough local talent and people from elsewhere didn't want to move to Little Rock. They even offered a very competitive entry-level salary to try to entice college grads but living in Little Rock was a deal breaker for them. This was before the recession so people could be more picky but I doubt its changed too much now. Cities like Portland that have a ton of intelligent, capable, college educated young people moving there in droves from around the country without job prospects have a surplus which is why so many people end up underemployed. It's the same deal in Charlotte which enjoyed much of the media praise in the early and mid 2000s that Portland is getting now. For Millennials, I don't think job availability and salary is as much of a factor as wanting to live some place perceived as trendy and liberal.
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