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View Poll Results: What is the westernmost city in the Southeastern United States?
Little Rock, Arkansas 15 15.15%
Tulsa, Oklahoma 7 7.07%
Dallas, Texas 24 24.24%
Houston, Texas 17 17.17%
San Antonio, Texas 15 15.15%
El Paso, Texas 12 12.12%
Other (Explain!) 9 9.09%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
Agreed. Neither Texas or Oklahoma are Southeastern states. The answer is either Shreveport or Ft Smith.
^This.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
I see your point of course, and agree with it on some levels. However, the qualifier is that much of the so-called "Southwestern" architecture in west Texas -- with the exception of historic cities like San Antonio -- is more the result of latter day planning than natural evolution...

Here is a good excerpt from an article on the subject:

************************************************** *

Edited by Joseph Carleton Wilder
UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA PRESS
THE SOUTHWEST CENTER
TUCSON

From The Southwest Defined

****************

El Paso, culturally as well as physically, has belonged more with Southwestern cities Albuquerque and Tucson than with Dallas or Houston. However, the Spanish did explore and settle much of southern Texas, and that fact plus close historical ties with Mexico, remains the most legitimate-and only-claim the rest of Texas can present as a credential for membership in "the Southwest." And in many other ways Texas simply doesn't qualify, despite such vestigial Hispanic enclaves as San Antonio and Nacogdoches.

The physiographic Southwest houses cultural traits that give it a unique regional identity....(and)
Place names in southern Texas and California suggest a rich and enduring Hispanic heritage in those two states. But following the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, hordes of white Americans rushed into these Hispanic areas of Texas, and, even though white Americans totally dominated these parts of Texas, they continued to use many existing Spanish place names. A meaningful cultural presence of Hispanic traditions cannot be derived merely from Spanish place names. And other qualifications- primarily physiographic, climatic, and prehistoric-preclude Texas and California from being placed within "the Southwest."




Again, a very good question! But, like Spade said, Texas, by and large, should be left out of this discussion, as it is not -- as a whole -- a "Southeastern" state. Southern? yes, but not "southEAST". Yeah, if broken down a bit, I can think of a few exceptions...and Dallas might well be one of them. Or at least was at one point in time. And certainly, depending upon the definition of exactly what constitutes a "city", then many small cities (such as Tyler, Texas) would qualify as the western-most extension of the Southeast in that regard.

But anyway, to reply to your very good question about San Antone? Hmmmm...that one is always a toughie. On one hand, and what many people don't know is that the city has strong Old South characteristics. In fact, even today, it advertizes itself as a "Blend of the Old South and Old Mexico."

But if I HAD to vote, one way or the other? I would honestly have to go with "Southeast" as the major shaping force. I know, I know...but I am saying this in the sense of "either/or". And the basis of comparrison being to major cities in New Mexico or Arizona...or even El Paso...which have almost nothing classically "Southern" about them; whereas San Antonio decidely does...

Very good analysis!

I think one thing everybody can agree on is Texas and Oklahoma are both very transitional states and there is significant change as you move from one side to the other. The point about the white settlers from the South rushing into Texas makes sense. Despite the names of places and architecture style, the predominant lineage of the natives today can be traced back to the Old South, giving it its Southern culture and therefore excluding it from the true Southwest. I've never been to either city, but my guess is that tea would be sweet by default in San Antonio but unsweetened in El Paso. Is that the case?

I guess you can compare it to Southern California, which by appearances would fit in with the Southwest. Places with names like Los Angeles and San Diego and architecture that's not too different from Phoenix. The culture of Southern California however has no ties with the interior Southwest due to the people who settled there and instead is more "West Coast", fitting in with everything up to San Francisco and possibly even Seattle.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:23 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,140,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
I've never been to either city, but my guess is that tea would be sweet by default in San Antonio but unsweetened in El Paso. Is that the case?
LOL Actually, it really isn't. That is the classic paradox in Texas (in fact, there is a sub-topic going on in the Texas forum on this very subject).

It boils down to that (with the exception of far East Texas and private establishments), "sweet tea" -- in the pre-sweetened sense -- is fairly rare in Texas, in most restaurants. The paradox comes in where that almost all native Texans (at least in my experience) -- when making it at home -- make it in the classic "Southern sweet tea" manner.

In other words, go into the average restaurant in Texas and order tea as the drink? Then it will likely come unsweetened...and you sweeten it to taste via that large sugar container on the table. BUT? Go into someones home and they offer you some tea to drink? Then it will almost certainly have been pre-sweetened during the boiling/brewing process....

Weird, huh?
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
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The fact that Texas was once a Mexican territory gives it a commonality with the southwest. However, the piney woods/big thicket area are certainly southern. So if Tyler is in the discussion I would say that it would count as an answer. I would say the "true" southern part of Texas runs east of I-45 up to about Buffalo and then through Athens, Greenville and Paris. \

You get west of that and it changes some. More plainsy in the north down to the Hill country which I would say is hard to classify other than it's early history with Mexico.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:16 PM
 
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I was thinking Beaumont as a good western boundary.

San Antonio owes a ton of its history to Mexico, and nearby areas had large numbers of German immigrants in the mid 1800s. San Antonio would seem to have much more in common with cities in the Rio Grande Valley than with cities like Atlanta or Birmingham. There are definitely forces other than Southern that played a significant role in shaping the central Texas and South Texas regions.

Just take the county names near San Antonio, nearly all Spanish. Bexar, Bandera, Medina, Real, Uvalde, Val Verde, Frio, Zavala, Atascosa, Guadelupe, Gonzales, Comal, Blanco, Llano, etc....
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:38 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,140,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thisguysa View Post
San Antonio owes a ton of its history to Mexico, and nearby areas had large numbers of German immigrants in the mid 1800s.
And south Louisiana owes a ton of its history to France. And the German areas of the Texas Hill country? Most actually, once it was an established fact, supported the Confederacy.

Letter From Texas: Gott Mit Uns | Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture


Quote:
San Antonio would seem to have much more in common with cities in the Rio Grande Valley than with cities like Atlanta or Birmingham. There are definitely forces other than Southern that played a significant role in shaping the central Texas and South Texas regions.
Of course there are other influences than Southeastern that shaped this part of Texas. But, the Southern influence is easily the dominant one...

Quote:
Just take the county names near San Antonio, nearly all Spanish. Bexar, Bandera, Medina, Real, Uvalde, Val Verde, Frio, Zavala, Atascosa, Guadelupe, Gonzales, Comal, Blanco, Llano, etc....
Did you read the article posted above as pertains to names? If not, here it is again:
*********************

Edited by Joseph Carleton Wilder
UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA PRESS
THE SOUTHWEST CENTER
TUCSON

From The Southwest Defined

****************

El Paso, culturally as well as physically, has belonged more with Southwestern cities Albuquerque and Tucson than with Dallas or Houston. However, the Spanish did explore and settle much of southern Texas, and that fact plus close historical ties with Mexico, remains the most legitimate-and only-claim the rest of Texas can present as a credential for membership in "the Southwest." And in many other ways Texas simply doesn't qualify, despite such vestigial Hispanic enclaves as San Antonio and Nacogdoches.

The physiographic Southwest houses cultural traits that give it a unique regional identity....(and)
Place names in southern Texas and California suggest a rich and enduring Hispanic heritage in those two states. But following the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, hordes of white Americans rushed into these Hispanic areas of Texas, and, even though white Americans totally dominated these parts of Texas, they continued to use many existing Spanish place names. A meaningful cultural presence of Hispanic traditions cannot be derived merely from Spanish place names. And other qualifications- primarily physiographic, climatic, and prehistoric-preclude Texas and California from being placed within "the Southwest."
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:44 PM
 
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New Orleans. Nowhere in Texas is in the Southeast.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:51 PM
 
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I don't think the area fits into the "Southwest" either.

"A meaningful cultural presence of Hispanic traditions cannot be derived merely from Spanish place names." -
I don't think this applies to that region of Texas, simply because the Hispanic culture and tradition exists so strongly that the place names are irrelevant. I've heard that argument about places in California, however. Most of those counties I mentioned aren't just Spanish place names that are dominated by peoples of southern heritage, instead they are much more likely to be home to people whose ancestry traces directly to Mexico, whether first generation or many generations (less so with the counties on I-10/35 and US281). I'm not denying the migration of southerners westward, but I would argue that Southern cultural connections in that region of Texas are not the dominant ones.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
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I never eat biscuits and grits for breakfast; none of my friends do it either.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polo89 View Post
New Orleans. Nowhere in Texas is in the Southeast.
Why New Orleans? I think its pushing it in the other extreme to say New Orleans. Most of Arkansas and Louisiana are decidedly Southeastern in almost every way. The only thing that is different is that they are west of the Mississippi River, but the Delta culture that dominates west Tennessee and Mississippi is also present in much of Louisiana and in Arkansas as far west as Little Rock. Topography and climate is the same, and doesn't change until you get into Oklahoma and Texas where rainfall amounts drop quickly.

Last edited by bchris02; 11-17-2012 at 09:18 PM..
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