U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-24-2012, 06:50 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
6,854 posts, read 6,186,695 times
Reputation: 6128

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
That is not a "bottom line" at all...simply your own interpretation of "alternate" Texas history. And yes, the western half WAS part of the Confederacy. Which part wasn't? In fact, in some ways, topography not withstanding, the dominance of the eastern South on west Texas may be an untapped story in itself. It is rural, Southern Baptist to the max, the "Southern twang" is right there, and cotton is king...

But regardless, west Texas today would not be what it is if not for the overwhelming influence of southeastern settlers making it. It was the South that shaped West Texas, not the Rocky Mountain West nor interior Southwest. Thus, with all due respect, your thesis is just historically impossible to have ever happened at all except if the migration patterns has gone west to east.....



No, what most of west Texas contains, from the very start, is the simple fact it is the South moved west. Where the basic character of the South is blended with the frontier traits of the post-bellum west. It is the old Southwest of the 19th century. Its whole "Southwestern" character is nothing at all like that of the interior SW of New Mexico and Arizona. If anything, there is a thin slice of eastern New Mexico that shares certain traits with west Texas. NOT the other way around.



Uhhh, then I guess that alone indicates there must be something "southern about it? Plus that the area went for secession and there are Confederate monuments out that way?

With that said though, of course, I would agree that there isn't much classically Southern about it. But STILL, more than that in New Mexico and Arizona.

I agree totally but maintain if west Texas had not been a part of Texas from the beginning it wouldn't be considered "southern" and instead would be considered southwestern and high plains in the panhandle.

The western part of Texas is "southern" because it was influenced culturally and politically but it is NOT southern regarding it's climate and topography (relative to the rest of the south and even east Texas).

The idea that dryland irrigation of cotton is somehow indicative of "southernness" may or may not be true but if it is in fact an indicator, Arizona historically has grown a lot of cotton and still grows a fair amount so I guess we can say that Arizona is in fact "southern"........
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-24-2012, 02:31 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,112,011 times
Reputation: 5741
Thanks for a good intelligent and civil reply, EddieGein! And I always respect a worthy opponent. Rep point incoming for that reason alone!

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
I agree totally but maintain if west Texas had not been a part of Texas from the beginning it wouldn't be considered "southern" and instead would be considered southwestern and high plains in the panhandle.
But the point is that it WAS Texas all along. With all due respect, you are bringing alternate history into it along the same lines of, if not quite so extreme as "if pigs had wings they'd be eagles", at least to the point of something like "Well, if the South had won, then New Mexico would be considered Confederate.."

I guess my basic repetitive point is that regional identification has to be considered today in light of what really happened, and how things really did evolve. Not the way you seem to want to frame it (and I mean that in a respectful way).

Quote:
The western part of Texas is "southern" because it was influenced culturally and politically but it is NOT southern regarding it's climate and topography (relative to the rest of the south and even east Texas).
And I fully agree with you there, and have said so! But culture and history and influences of the same matter quite a bit more than physical geography (even if the same have a definite influence provided other characteristics are present).

[quote] The idea that dryland irrigation of cotton is somehow indicative of "southernness" may or may not be true but if it is in fact an indicator, Arizona historically has grown a lot of cotton and still grows a fair amount so I guess we can say that Arizona is in fact "southern"........[/QUOTE]

No, because the distinguishing characteristic between Texas relationship to the "cotton states" and that of Arizona, are not at all alike. Texas was part of the original "Southern Cotton Belt" (which some historians even today say truly defines the "Deep South"). Texas whole economy was early on long time dependent upon cotton, and it stayed that way well into the 20th century. And I mean the old fashioned cotton farming living of tenant famers and their decendents...who were truly Southern and with Southern attitudes about cotton living.

On the other hand? Arizona was not and never was considered to be part of the South. It became good cotton country later on, for sure...but in a decidedly different way than that of how it evolved in Texas. It's natural hot climate lent to cotton (all in all), many years later, being a major crop, but it was dependent upon modern day irrigation, not a natural climate.

And nothing wrong with that at all!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-24-2012, 06:11 PM
 
8,287 posts, read 11,832,595 times
Reputation: 4948
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTarheel View Post
The South has become such a diverse region in the past few years that I don't see the need to single out diverse areas as "unsouthern" anymore. Yes South Florida has a strong Latin culture mixed with the southern culture, but there are other large areas of the South that are very diverse as well. Texas is very Mexican, but do we need to separate it for that reason? Whatever the differences in culture, they are all part of the southern U.S. in my opinion.
South Florida especially SE Florida mostly don't consider themselves as "Southerners" culturally or politically except perhaps for the African American community. One has to take into account that SE Florida was developed by Henry Flagler ( Standard Oil founder from NY) & his railroad and other Northerners. The cities in south Florida were peddled to Northerners as resorts. By the 1920's Miami had more Jews living their than any other southern city. It wasn't until after WW2 when many southern Military people were stationed & trained in Miami that they returned after the War to live.

Mexicans in Texas are quite different since they have adapted hence Tex Mex and aren't even that culturally divided save for the language barrier.
PS: Want to insult a Miamian? Call them a "southerner!"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2012, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
6,854 posts, read 6,186,695 times
Reputation: 6128
[quote=TexasReb;27074605]Thanks for a good intelligent and civil reply, EddieGein! And I always respect a worthy opponent. Rep point incoming for that reason alone!

[quote]

But the point is that it WAS Texas all along. With all due respect, you are bringing alternate history into it along the same lines of, if not quite so extreme as "if pigs had wings they'd be eagles", at least to the point of something like "Well, if the South had won, then New Mexico would be considered Confederate.."

I guess my basic repetitive point is that regional identification has to be considered today in light of what really happened, and how things really did evolve. Not the way you seem to want to frame it (and I mean that in a respectful way).



And I fully agree with you there, and have said so! But culture and history and influences of the same matter quite a bit more than physical geography (even if the same have a definite influence provided other characteristics are present).

Quote:
The idea that dryland irrigation of cotton is somehow indicative of "southernness" may or may not be true but if it is in fact an indicator, Arizona historically has grown a lot of cotton and still grows a fair amount so I guess we can say that Arizona is in fact "southern"........[/QUOTE]

No, because the distinguishing characteristic between Texas relationship to the "cotton states" and that of Arizona, are not at all alike. Texas was part of the original "Southern Cotton Belt" (which some historians even today say truly defines the "Deep South"). Texas whole economy was early on long time dependent upon cotton, and it stayed that way well into the 20th century. And I mean the old fashioned cotton farming living of tenant famers and their decendents...who were truly Southern and with Southern attitudes about cotton living.

On the other hand? Arizona was not and never was considered to be part of the South. It became good cotton country later on, for sure...but in a decidedly different way than that of how it evolved in Texas. It's natural hot climate lent to cotton (all in all), many years later, being a major crop, but it was dependent upon modern day irrigation, not a natural climate.

And nothing wrong with that at all!
Ok, you forced me to do some research on Cotton farming and you are indeed correct. Arizona's cotton industry did not begin until somewhat after statehood (1912) however it also appears that cotton farming and processing did not begin on the south plains in Texas until after 1900 either.

I realize I am presenting an alternative history but more than anything I am pointing out the differences between west and east Texas while you are pointing out similarities. However that is one of the magical things about the state of Texas. You can be in a place in Texas and think you are in the deep south or you can be in another place and think you are in New Mexico. And you can be in the northern panhandle and think you are in western Kansas...........as long as nobody opens their mouth to talk.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2012, 10:51 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,112,011 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Ok, you forced me to do some research on Cotton farming and you are indeed correct. Arizona's cotton industry did not begin until somewhat after statehood (1912) however it also appears that cotton farming and processing did not begin on the south plains in Texas until after 1900 either.
You have a point here, as well, but I wouldn't go quite so far. Although you are correct in that (next to the Mississippi delta area), west Texas didn't become the major cotton-producing area it later became, the early settlers (overwhelmingly from the southeastern United States), still attempted it -- albeit on a much smaller scale -- and their methods were just a natural continuation of their "Cotton States" roots and attitudes.

Here is an interesting link on the subject, by the way...

Cotton Link: History of Cotton in Texas

Quote:
I realize I am presenting an alternative history but more than anything I am pointing out the differences between west and east Texas while you are pointing out similarities.
Yes, I am. But it is important to remember -- IMHO -- the main issue itself. That is to say, whether or not "West Texas" is more "Southwestern" (as in more similiarity with New Mexico and Arizona), than "Southern". Or -- as is my position -- that west Texas is really just being the basic South moved into a more "western and frontier" type environment, development in the post-bellum era.

Of course, there is little question -- and I wouldn't argue otherwise -- that in terms of topography and physical features, it is "Southwestern". The qualifier though boils down to just how important is this factor in relation to the settlement patterns, attitudes, blood ties, religious aspect, speech, etc? Mine (naturally! LOL), is that even west Texas (trans-pecos, exempted) is more "Southern" than "Southwestern" in that regard. At least when stacked up against the interior Southwest states.

Quote:
However that is one of the magical things about the state of Texas. You can be in a place in Texas and think you are in the deep south or you can be in another place and think you are in New Mexico.
Well, we definitely agree on that aspect of it!

Although...*considering with good humor and a wink*...I might twist it around a bit and say those from the Deep South wouldn't know they weren't still in the Deep South if they were suddenly transported into true East Texas. And likewise, some in eastern New Mexico not know they weren't still in "home" if transported into West Texas!

Gotta get our "beam me up, Scottie" priorities straight here, doncha know!

Quote:
And you can be in the northern panhandle and think you are in western Kansas...........as long as nobody opens their mouth to talk.
LOL This is a good one...and true!

Anyway, enjoyed the discussion!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2012, 07:03 PM
 
14,111 posts, read 22,753,233 times
Reputation: 4208
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiRob View Post
South Florida especially SE Florida mostly don't consider themselves as "Southerners" culturally or politically except perhaps for the African American community. One has to take into account that SE Florida was developed by Henry Flagler ( Standard Oil founder from NY) & his railroad and other Northerners. The cities in south Florida were peddled to Northerners as resorts. By the 1920's Miami had more Jews living their than any other southern city. It wasn't until after WW2 when many southern Military people were stationed & trained in Miami that they returned after the War to live.

Mexicans in Texas are quite different since they have adapted hence Tex Mex and aren't even that culturally divided save for the language barrier.
PS: Want to insult a Miamian? Call them a "southerner!"
This is deadly accurate. Miami and South Florida for most of it's history was a resort type place specifically catering to tourist from up North. Southerners didn't start moving to Miami En Masse until WWII. Miami's still a fairly new city, it wasn't established as a city until AFTER the Civil War. Having said that, most of the African-Americans in Miami have ancestry in GA, NC, SC, etc. The Black-Americans in Miami are legit Southerners. And the 1st generation West Indian-Americans that are raised in the communities adjacent to the Black-American ones, take on the Black-Southern culture themselves.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2012, 10:06 PM
 
2,331 posts, read 3,806,000 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnewberry22 View Post
I just don't understand why this kid is so adament about defending the "southernness" of Maryland. The state has a few isolated southern traits......thats all. People in southern Illinois have a drawl, people in southern Indiana have a slight accent, people in Bakersfield, CA still have a southern drawl because of early immigration, people in central PA like sweet tea, and some folk out in Kansas play bluegrass. These are all southern(ish) traits...they do NOT make the area itself southern.

To reiterate: Maryland and Delaware may have a few southern traits...however these traits exist primarily because of their proximity to the South. Maryland, Delaware, and DC fit very well into the geographic idenitifier "Mid Atlantic" which is a blend of Northern and Southern cultures.
Ok, However Maryland is still a Southern State.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2012, 10:09 PM
 
2,331 posts, read 3,806,000 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTA88 View Post
Thank you. I'm not sure why $mk is losing his mind, but at least there are some sensible people in this thread.
Why would someone take it as an insult to say Maryland and Delaware aren't southern?
Its not about taking it as an insult but moreso of some people from the deep south feel offended whenever anyone defines Maryland, DC, and/or Delaware as part of the South....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2012, 10:11 PM
 
2,331 posts, read 3,806,000 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by I'minformed2 View Post
Something like half of Delaware's population is in the Philly metro area.......don't see how anyone could consider that southern. Even in the southern end of Delaware, Rehoboth Beach and Bethany Beach feel much more similar to the Jersey Shore than to say, The Outer Banks or Hilton Head...not to mention most of the people who vacation there are from Pennsylvania.
Maybe not Hilton Head but it definitely feels like Virginia Beach......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2012, 10:16 PM
 
2,331 posts, read 3,806,000 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy-040 View Post
Upper Southwest: Northern California, Northern Nevada, Utah, Colorado

Lower Southwest: Southern California, Southern Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico

Upper Mid South: Kansas, Missouri

Lower Mid South: Oklahoma, Arkansas, Texas

Upper Southeast: Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina

Lower Southeast: Lousiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Florida
Upper Southeast: Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, DC, Maryland, and Delaware
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top