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Old 12-09-2012, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Maryland
4,265 posts, read 5,477,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieJonez View Post
Orange County still feels socially more liberal than most of the midwest, even being a conservative county (by California standards)...It's obviously socially more liberal than DuPage or Lake County though, and most of Chicago metro.
I'm not concerned with your "feelings," I'm concerned with voting records on political and social policies. Unless you can show me voting policies that spell out how Orange county is more socially liberal than "most of the Chicago metro," I don't believe you.

And Orange county, CA isn't just conservative by California standards, it's conservative by U.S. standards. Hell, when the first paragraph of the county's Wiki page reads "it is known for its affluence and political conservatism – a 2005 academic study listed three Orange County cities as being among America's 25 "most conservative," making it one of two counties in the country containing more than one such city (Maricopa County, Arizona also has three cities on the list).[2]" it speaks volumes.

You are also conflating progressivism and liberalism, which aren't one in the same thing...
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
2,331 posts, read 3,054,090 times
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Political liberalism and cultural liberalism are not the same thing. Some places are both (this is generally a west coast thing), others are one and not the other. New England would be an example of a place that votes very liberal but in cultural terms is very conventional. Most midwestern big cities are politically liberal but culturally conventional, including Chicago; the only one that isn't is Minneapolis.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:23 PM
 
1,911 posts, read 3,240,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewcifer View Post
Political liberalism and cultural liberalism are not the same thing. Some places are both (this is generally a west coast thing), others are one and not the other. New England would be an example of a place that votes very liberal but in cultural terms is very conventional. Most midwestern big cities are politically liberal but culturally conventional, including Chicago; the only one that isn't is Minneapolis.
Agreed, they are not the same thing at all. For some reason, a lot of the midwest has trouble understanding that - like it's quantum physics or something.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
14,798 posts, read 19,010,012 times
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If Chicago has a conservative feel, then I'm the president of the United States. I've lived in a lot of places in the midwest and no. Sorry..not even close. Chicago area is the most liberal feeling. Des Moines is conservative as all hell compared to Chicago area. Not even close. If you really think Chicago has a conservative feel compared to others then you haven't lived in enough areas in the midwest.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:56 PM
 
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Overall, I'd say Chicago is more liberal than Des Moines as well...but not to the point there is a grand canyon of difference either. Both are democratic cities, Des Moines tries to feign liberalism (to appear to be a bigger city), where Chicago doesn't need to, but has very little true liberalism to begin with. In Minneapolis, there is a difference.

Chicago has quite a few politically democratic neighborhoods (some that are very liberal), but it isn't a culturally liberal city. For some reason, this has not been scientifically quantified. Guess that means no one should bring it up, lol.

The midwest confuses voting democratic (politically liberal) as being culturally liberal, when it is not. Point this out, people get mad. Not my fault.

Minneapolis is the only outlier in the midwest that actually feels liberal in the progressive west-coast sense. Denying that is just ignorance.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:36 PM
 
Location: In the heights
22,140 posts, read 23,648,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieJonez View Post
Overall, I'd say Chicago is more liberal than Des Moines as well...but not to the point there is a grand canyon of difference either. Both are democratic cities, Des Moines tries to feign liberalism (to appear to be a bigger city), where Chicago doesn't need to, but has very little true liberalism to begin with. In Minneapolis, there is a difference.

Chicago has quite a few politically democratic neighborhoods (some that are very liberal), but it isn't a culturally liberal city. For some reason, this has not been scientifically quantified. Guess that means no one should bring it up, lol.

The midwest confuses voting democratic (politically liberal) as being culturally liberal, when it is not. Point this out, people get mad. Not my fault.

Minneapolis is the only outlier in the midwest that actually feels liberal in the progressive west-coast sense. Denying that is just ignorance.
The portion of Chicago that feels liberal/progressive is large though due to Chicago being a fairly large city/metro. It's also arguable there are some more college town sort of cities of decent size (though not really that big) such as Ann Arbor and Madison which are also very liberal.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
1,277 posts, read 4,154,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieJonez View Post
I'm not denying Columbus is liberal in this aspect, but that does not mean it's an across-the-board liberal city. Nowhere in the midwest really is.

Gay rights can also be misleading. Iowa for example, has legalized gay marriage. Does that mean anywhere in Iowa is more LGBT-friendly than San Francisco? Obviously not. The paradox lies in the fact gay marriage is recognized at a courthouse in rural Iowa - but not in San Francisco's Castro district.

Most all cities over 100,000 in the US by this point are at least somewhat gay friendly (besides some in the deep south), it's midwestern cities using standard gay rights to pretend they are basically super liberal when they aren't. I've been to every major city in the country and there's a difference in attitudes when you compare Chicago to LA regarding what liberal means. Minneapolis is the only large city in the midwest that has a real progressive mentality (outside of the college campus sense).

Midwestern cities spend all this time convincing themselves they are more liberal than they really are, it's impressive. Feigned liberalism.
Again we can agree to disagree. Columbus' central city is across the board progressive. And that would be the main 50 sq miles (pre WWII) This is about 350,000 of the total population. Plus all of the inner ring suburbs are too (grandview even worthington these days)

The areas of Columbus that are the most progressive are in and around downtown, and further out suburbs and neighborhoods. And they are not where students live. They are neighborhoods like Clintonville, the short north, the whole east and central north sides, etc.

Then the whole city and most suburbs tend moderate to socially liberal. So I would disagree that this liberal mentality is regulated to a campus area, etc. That is not that case here.

Columbus city tends to vote for things or institute things that are "progressive" before many other midwestern places. Just one example the city tried to pass a smoking ban in the 90s before that really got going. The reason for this is that much of the Columbus population is very white collar but also transplants from the NE and more liberal places. This makes a big difference in the demographics compared to cities further west. IF the city could vote for the whole state you wouldn't have the same opinion of Ohio.

And on the Iowa thing. You are correct. The equal marriage law was not voted on, it was decided by the courts. It wasn't even decided by representatives held accountable to the electorate. Thus that helps to explain why Iowa has this law (and a strange contradiction), and other places do not. If it was up to the Columbus vote/frankin county voter, Ohio would have had gay marriage in 04 etc (based on the fact the whole county then opposed the marriage bans)

I think you can find other larger midwestern cities that may fit this. Though I would argue Columbus may be the most progressive after Minneapolis and Chicago, other than maybe Cleveland (but there it is more old school democrat than solely progressive). Again for the sole fact it has a very small blue collar background and is further east (than other midwestern cities) with a high east coast transplant demographic.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,227,706 times
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Chicago, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Kansas City, and Milwaukee all get my respect. Metro areas need to be factored in as well...Chicago is able to stand on its own two feet primarily because of how big the city itself is.

To me, Des Moines, Omaha, Indy, and Columbus are just too small. Metro areas in general determine what a city has to offer, not the city itself, IMO.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
1,704 posts, read 2,762,345 times
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^Indianapolis and Columbus are both bigger than Milwaukee by 200k-300k people.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:36 PM
 
1,911 posts, read 3,240,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetcreed View Post
Again we can agree to disagree. Columbus' central city is across the board progressive. And that would be the main 50 sq miles (pre WWII) This is about 350,000 of the total population. Plus all of the inner ring suburbs are too (grandview even worthington these days)

The areas of Columbus that are the most progressive are in and around downtown, and further out suburbs and neighborhoods. And they are not where students live. They are neighborhoods like Clintonville, the short north, the whole east and central north sides, etc.

Then the whole city and most suburbs tend moderate to socially liberal. So I would disagree that this liberal mentality is regulated to a campus area, etc. That is not that case here.

Columbus city tends to vote for things or institute things that are "progressive" before many other midwestern places. Just one example the city tried to pass a smoking ban in the 90s before that really got going. The reason for this is that much of the Columbus population is very white collar but also transplants from the NE and more liberal places. This makes a big difference in the demographics compared to cities further west. IF the city could vote for the whole state you wouldn't have the same opinion of Ohio.

And on the Iowa thing. You are correct. The equal marriage law was not voted on, it was decided by the courts. It wasn't even decided by representatives held accountable to the electorate. Thus that helps to explain why Iowa has this law (and a strange contradiction), and other places do not. If it was up to the Columbus vote/frankin county voter, Ohio would have had gay marriage in 04 etc (based on the fact the whole county then opposed the marriage bans)

I think you can find other larger midwestern cities that may fit this. Though I would argue Columbus may be the most progressive after Minneapolis and Chicago, other than maybe Cleveland (but there it is more old school democrat than solely progressive). Again for the sole fact it has a very small blue collar background and is further east (than other midwestern cities) with a high east coast transplant demographic.
Columbus may be more liberal than other midwestern cities, and very well may be more liberal than Chicago. Being progressive in Ohio is just not the same as in California or the PNW. Minneapolis for whatever reason, is liberal in the PNW sense.

Take Boston for example, known as a liberal city, but New England has always been conservative culturally. There's very few cities that are actually "progressive liberal" in the US.
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