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View Poll Results: Which non-Confederate state is the most Southern?
Oklahoma 63 23.33%
Kentucky 163 60.37%
West Virginia 44 16.30%
Voters: 270. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-11-2013, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Shaw.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docholiday3 View Post
As a Kentuckian I and a descendant of two confederate vets I am very pro southern. Also Kentucky is the home of President Jeff Davis and a tall monument in his honor.However, since West Virginia was part of Virginia when it succeed until Lincoln who was against secession unilaterally and dictatoraly carved it out it should be the most southern. Whether it still is I doubt.
It's arguably unconstitutional for a state to split, but it was not unilateral (nor dictatorial). Delegates from the northwestern counties of Virginia met and voted to split from Virginia. They then petitioned Congress. Then Lincoln approved, but only after extracting the condition that West Virginia gradually abolish slavery. Lincoln didn't have to carve out West Virginia since it already voted to split. If he was going to carve out anything, he should have carved out northern Virginia (or the "occupied territories" as I heard a Leesburg judge once say).
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post
It's arguably unconstitutional for a state to split, but it was not unilateral (nor dictatorial). Delegates from the northwestern counties of Virginia met and voted to split from Virginia. They then petitioned Congress. Then Lincoln approved, but only after extracting the condition that West Virginia gradually abolish slavery. Lincoln didn't have to carve out West Virginia since it already voted to split. If he was going to carve out anything, he should have carved out northern Virginia (or the "occupied territories" as I heard a Leesburg judge once say).
That is not actually true, most of WV was carved out of Virginia and did NOT vote for statehood, they were basically kidnapped. As the Wheeling politician Peter van Winkle said Dec. 7, 1861-

"Well, sir, if these counties are inhabited by secessionists, some disposition has got to be made of them. They must be, as some remarks made by gentlemen here seem to point to - they must be exterminated by exile or death, or remain where they are. But in either case, sir, we want the territory. If they are going to remain upon it, still we want it.

These are the secessionist counties of WV-


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Old 09-11-2013, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Shaw.
2,226 posts, read 3,144,045 times
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'Twasn't Lincoln, which was my point.
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:05 AM
 
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I would say Oklahoma.

It wasn't a state during the civil war but if it would have been it would have went with Dixie. In most of the state, with the exception of the far western panhandle, the culture isn't that much different than the deepest parts of Mississippi, Alabama, or rural Georgia. There are virtually no ties with New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, or the other western states.
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Old 10-19-2013, 10:40 PM
 
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Definitely Kentucky. Never even considered Oklahoma as southern.
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Old 10-19-2013, 10:54 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityBrightLights View Post
I would say Oklahoma.

It wasn't a state during the civil war but if it would have been it would have went with Dixie. In most of the state, with the exception of the far western panhandle, the culture isn't that much different than the deepest parts of Mississippi, Alabama, or rural Georgia. There are virtually no ties with New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, or the other western states.
While I would never call Oklahoma part of the Deep South (parts of Southeastern Oklahoma come close), it definitely is the western-boundary of the Greater South. No doubt about that.

Culturally, Oklahoma is a conglomeration of Arkansas and North/West Texas with a good dash of western independence and grit thrown in there. As other posters have noted, Oklahoma is not like Colorado, New Mexico, Kansas, or Missouri. It is much more akin to its Southern Brothers with heavy doses of Native Culture mixed in for good measure. Oklahoma is unique, for sure.

From my visit to Kentucky (for the most part clearly Southern), I felt like maybe Ohio influenced the northern part of Kentucky more than Kansas influences the upper tip of Oklahoma. Hence, that is why many people sense the Midwestern feel of northern Kentucky....while it is much less common to associate Oklahoma with the Midwest. Oklahoma is usually associated with the Southwest/West almost as much as its Southern demarcation.
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Old 10-20-2013, 09:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
While I would never call Oklahoma part of the Deep South (parts of Southeastern Oklahoma come close), it definitely is the western-boundary of the Greater South. No doubt about that.

Culturally, Oklahoma is a conglomeration of Arkansas and North/West Texas with a good dash of western independence and grit thrown in there. As other posters have noted, Oklahoma is not like Colorado, New Mexico, Kansas, or Missouri. It is much more akin to its Southern Brothers with heavy doses of Native Culture mixed in for good measure. Oklahoma is unique, for sure.

From my visit to Kentucky (for the most part clearly Southern), I felt like maybe Ohio influenced the northern part of Kentucky more than Kansas influences the upper tip of Oklahoma. Hence, that is why many people sense the Midwestern feel of northern Kentucky....while it is much less common to associate Oklahoma with the Midwest. Oklahoma is usually associated with the Southwest/West almost as much as its Southern demarcation.
True.

A lot of people like to group Oklahoma with the West or Southwest having never been to the state and simply classifying it based on geography. Going by geography alone, most of Oklahoma has little in common with Alabama or even most of Arkansas (the Southeastern part of the state is the obvious exception). However, culturally I would say Oklahoma is more akin to Tennessee or Alabama than it is to even Kansas. Oklahoma City is actually pretty culturally similar to Knoxville, Tennessee. Aside from the geographical differences the cities have a pretty similar feel. There are some subtle differences but the only thing, at least of the surface, that is lacking in Oklahoma that Alabama has is an SEC football team.
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Old 10-21-2013, 01:52 AM
 
Location: south central
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I go to school with a guy from Oklahoma City, a girl from Wichita, and a girl from Topeka. There is a big difference between the OKC kids and the girls from Kansas and Nebraska. The guy has a quasi-Southern accent, akin to something I'd expect from an eastern Texan. OKC seems more Southern/Texan influenced, from what I've gained, than the prairies and Midwest. However, I would say a great indicator is: How do people define themselves? I've never heard someone from Oklahoma, and certainly not from West Virginia, identify as Southern. But I know people from Kentucky who identify as Southern, and if you need a non-personal example bell hooks come to mind as someone from there who identifies as being from the South.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Arkansas
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About the OKC/Little Rock/Fort Smith thing, first.

I was born in Little Rock (although raised maybe 80-90 miles north of there), and never in my life have I set foot in Oklahoma. Hell, I've never even been to Fort Smith. I would have to say that Little Rock has far more in common historically and culturally with Memphis or Jackson that it does with any city in Oklahoma (I'm not sure what Oklahoma's African-American population is, but I am assuming that the largest minority group there is probably Hispanic). Now, I'm not knocking Oklahoma; I have cousins that moved there a few decades ago. And they do indeed have somewhat Southern speech patterns, although nothing like the rest of my father's family. I guess I would describe them as having sort of their own kind of Southern accent with some Western plains thrown in there. The point is, I think that Oklahoma City and Oklahoma in general has more in common with Texas and Kansas than the states it borders to the east, except for the Little Dixie area.

But, with that out of the way, Kentucky gets my vote, though Oklahoma is a close second. It is worth mentioning, however, that Kentucky and Missouri are the only two border states with stars representing them on the Confederate battle flag.
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Old 10-21-2013, 03:20 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,412 posts, read 7,708,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityBrightLights View Post
True.

A lot of people like to group Oklahoma with the West or Southwest having never been to the state and simply classifying it based on geography. Going by geography alone, most of Oklahoma has little in common with Alabama or even most of Arkansas (the Southeastern part of the state is the obvious exception). However, culturally I would say Oklahoma is more akin to Tennessee or Alabama than it is to even Kansas. Oklahoma City is actually pretty culturally similar to Knoxville, Tennessee. Aside from the geographical differences the cities have a pretty similar feel. There are some subtle differences but the only thing, at least of the surface, that is lacking in Oklahoma that Alabama has is an SEC football team.

I can see/sense that correlation in terms of general feel. Oklahoma is a little more Cowboy/Redneck South while Knoxville has a bit of that Old South charm. In general feel, however, the people are quite similar. I would agree with that.

As to the SEC and college football, Oklahoma (the University of Oklahoma) has already turned down Slive/SEC a few times. OU was invited to join the SEC before A&M....in fact, A&M was wanting the Sooners to reconsider rebuffing Slive/SEC and come in as a package deal to the SEC West. (Missouri, culturally way out of place in the SEC but doing well right now, solely got the invite after a few other teams like the Sooners/Longhorns turned down the SEC.)

If the Big XII continues to trend downward it wouldn't surprise me at all to see the Sooners join the SEC West if Slive extends the offer again.
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