U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 05-04-2015, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,913,851 times
Reputation: 10533

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by England Dan View Post
If you are Scots-Irish, ( this term, I think arose, because at the time of the revolution, being English went from being a solid pioneering expression, to a title that conjured up Upper-crust officer types, with dandy and nasty tendencies.
No. At the time of the Revolution, Scots-Irish were just called Irish. Ethnically speaking, they were a mixture Northern English and Lowland Scots. But their ancestors had lived in Ulster for generations at that point, and they thought of themselves as being Irish. It was only once Irish Catholics began migrating to the U.S. in the 1840s the term Scots-Irish came into the U.S. lexicon in a major way.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-04-2015, 09:10 AM
 
1,068 posts, read 735,605 times
Reputation: 1025
In Northern Ireland now, a Protestant would never call himself Rep Irish, so I find that strange, ( I admit I cant go back into the mind of an 18th century American Appalachian backwoodsmen), he would be flying his Union Jack and pledging fierce loyalty to the Queen, as do their kin who moved to Glasgow and are passionate British subjects who will die for Rangers FC ( much more than yobbish English fans!) It is though their separation from the UK has made their blood boil more loyally ( The whole Protestant/Irish tragedy is alien to the rest of Britain). So if they are the most British of the Brits for the last 200 years, why would, as I suggest, would they flock to call themselves Irish ( a name they will spit at as an association of being Catholic). Would the new environment, in a hostile Indian land ,or them seeing existing English descendants looking down at them, invent the name Scots-Irish? I am confused as this MAJOR United States racial group appears to be at odds with its ideal.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2015, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,913,851 times
Reputation: 10533
Quote:
Originally Posted by England Dan View Post
In Northern Ireland now, a Protestant would never call himself Rep Irish, so I find that strange, ( I admit I cant go back into the mind of an 18th century American Appalachian backwoodsmen), he would be flying his Union Jack and pledging fierce loyalty to the Queen, as do their kin who moved to Glasgow and are passionate British subjects who will die for Rangers FC ( much more than yobbish English fans!) It is though their separation from the UK has made their blood boil more loyally ( The whole Protestant/Irish tragedy is alien to the rest of Britain). So if they are the most British of the Brits for the last 200 years, why would, as I suggest, would they flock to call themselves Irish ( a name they will spit at as an association of being Catholic). Would the new environment, in a hostile Indian land ,or them seeing existing English descendants looking down at them, invent the name Scots-Irish? I am confused as this MAJOR United States racial group appears to be at odds with its ideal.
The identification of Irish nationality with Catholicism wasn't really something which was even settled in Ireland until the early 20th century. There were a lot of Protestant Irish nationalists in the 18th and 19th century.

Also, it's important to remember there were historically big divisions between the Anglo-Irish (the descendants of English gentry, who were members of the Church of Ireland) and the Ulstermen (who were of common Scottish and English ancestry, and mostly Presbyterian). Presbyterians were mostly excluded from government for much of British Ireland's history just as Catholics were. Many migrated to the U.S. in the 18th century because the Test Act specifically excluded them from having any voice in Irish government. In America Scots-Irish were noted as being overwhelmingly supporters of the Revolution in historical documents. Indeed, even after the Revolution, they caused big headaches for the early U.S. during the Whiskey Rebellion. As a people, they had little use for governmental authority or legal strictures of any sort.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2015, 09:40 AM
 
1,068 posts, read 735,605 times
Reputation: 1025
Thanks for that reply. I was just thinking how these so called Rangers fans from Scotland TRASHED Manchester city centre after a football match.... no British Brethren there. I say unite Ireland
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2015, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,913,851 times
Reputation: 10533
Quote:
Originally Posted by England Dan View Post
Thanks for that reply. I was just thinking how these so called Rangers fans from Scotland TRASHED Manchester city centre after a football match.... no British Brethren there. I say unite Ireland
I lived in England around 2000 or so, and the general attitude of most of the English people I met was vague embarrassment Northern Ireland existed, and wishing it would just sort of go away. It might have just been the sort of people who go to university however.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2015, 09:55 AM
 
1,068 posts, read 735,605 times
Reputation: 1025
Even now, I cannot understand the scale of the religious divide between Catholics and Protestants in the island of Ireland. I think with our own erosion of identity with mass immigration, the Brits have become listless and frankly uninterested in Ireland. The Irish have their own problems with mass Polish migration from Europe, lack of jobs, and it is though this gulf belongs to a distant past. The Brits and Irish get on very well, on the whole, and enjoy their football, horse racing ect. Globalisation is covering us all.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2015, 09:55 AM
 
Location: California
4,552 posts, read 5,466,666 times
Reputation: 9608
Appalachia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Since its recognition as a distinctive region in the late 19th century, Appalachia has been a source of enduring myths and distortions regarding the isolation, temperament, and behavior of its inhabitants. Early 20th-century writers often engaged in yellow journalism focused on sensationalistic aspects of the region's culture, such as moonshining and clan feuding, and often portrayed the region's inhabitants as uneducated and prone to impulsive acts of violence. Sociological studies in the 1960s and 1970s helped to re-examine and dispel these stereotypes.[3]

This link also has a map of Appalachia.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2015, 10:16 AM
 
1,068 posts, read 735,605 times
Reputation: 1025
In Britain ( poss Ireland), there is a paradox of behaviour and environment. There is an ingrained violence with the split Protestant/catholic communities of Glasgow and Belfast, to a degree, Liverpool and Manchester. Maybe Northern Irelands working class populace carried their mind-set to the Appalachians. I was surprised when the Scots football fans ( Banging on about their Britishness), wreaked havoc in Manchester, England. Mind you I think there is a violent tendancy in most Briitsh Isles citizens. If you look at our election in Britain, you have the 7 clans fighting it out and no love lost. That's why Britain has been invaded over the centuries, though fierce we are divisive. Even now.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2015, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Rainy Ulster.
264 posts, read 204,749 times
Reputation: 403
At the time of the migrations of the Ulster Scots (as we are termed nowadays) to the US in the early and mid 18th century, they were fleeing famine and the Test Act, which was an act of Parliament designed to force all religious worship in Ireland, England and Wales to be on the Anglican model.
This wasnt popular to say the least, as these people had seen their fathers and grandfsthers fight for the Crown against the hostile Irish at the start of the plantations in the early 1600s, fight and revenge themselves against the massacres they endured during the great 1641 Irish rebellion, tread a wary and dangerous line during the civil wars of the 1640s, and then hold the province against the Jacobite catholic Irish in the Williamite wars during the seige of Derry and at the battles of the Boyne, Aughrim and Enniskillen while fighting alongside King Billy.
And barely decades later, the largely religious and overwhelmingly Presbyterian settlers where being denied the freedoms they believed they fought for. So when a route west to the New World became available they were only too happy to take it.

Of course at that time the only thing they found less popular than the English authorities (not the English people as a good percentage of these Ulster settlers antecedents were from Northumbria and Cumbria and reivers on the English side of the Scottish border) were the Irish catholics. So when the American war of Independence/revolution broke out they were readily eager to join in.

Of those that stayed behind in Ulster, they too stayed in a revolutionary state of mind. While there was always conflict with the Catholic Irish, there was even more disquiet with the English establishment. So when the 1798 rebellion broke out, inspred the events in the new USA 20 years before and financed and organised by Napoleonic France, it was the Presbyterians who led the revolt in Ulster.
It was a disaster and was easily and savagely crushed but not before it saw the massacre of protestants, whether Presbyterian or Anglican and no matter if they supported the rebellion or not by Catholic rebels in other parts of Ireland.
That was a shocking blow to the Ulster Scot psyche.
This seemed to confirm that they could trust no one but themselves, and never the Irish.
Within a few decades they went from rebellious to firecely loyal to the Crown. And it has to be pointed out, just the Crown, not Westminster, which is regarded to this day with utmost suspicion.

When the mass Irish emigration happened during the famine, as has been stated above, those who had settled in the US from Ulster still held little regard for the old foe and added the Scots to their name to differenciate between the two.

And even up to the 1920s and partition, it was common for anyone regardless of creed, politics or race, who came from the island to call themselves Irish.
The Home rule crisis of the late 19th and early 20th centuries was seen on the Orange/Protestant side as a struggle to keep the whole of Ireland under the Crown.
If you look at some of the iconic images held dear by the Protestant (for want of a better term) side here even today, some of those that date from pre Home Rule crisis, often feature harps, shamrocks and celtic crosses, and other traditional Irish/Gaelic imagery (e.g. badges of Irish regiments, 36th Ulster Division, old RUC cap badge, even the Northern Ireland football association crest).

Since the Home Rule crisis and WW1 - the Battle of the Somme is still commerated up here by thousands each year because of the carnage on the 36th Ulster Division - the increasing polticisation of the the Irish name and culture by republicans has made being identified as Irish as uncomfortable for some, but not all, Ulster Prods these days.

I was born here in Ulster and lived here for most of my 51 years but would never call myself Irish, not that theres anything wrong and no reason why you shouldnt be proud to regard yourself as Irish, its just im not Irish.
An Ulsterman first, British second, Northern Irish at a pinch, but not Irish. I just dont identify with that name.
Anyway the world seems full of them already, I'm sure they wont miss the odd one or two.

Some historian said that the Protestants of Northern Ireland might not be able to tell you who they are, but they sure as hell can tell you who they aren't.

Last edited by BarringtonNI; 05-04-2015 at 10:36 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2015, 11:09 AM
 
1,068 posts, read 735,605 times
Reputation: 1025
Very good post, you mention the Reivers, the Borderers, (Isn`t Charlton one such name), they were a hard bunch, I need to read up on these guys.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top