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Have you heard Blacks from STL like Chingy and Nelly? They sound real southern to me. More so than Philly Blacks, who are closer to NYC Blacks in accent. The whole Midland thing doesn't apply to Black Americans. As most Blacks outside of maybe NYC and Boston come from the South. To me, the Black Philly accent is like 70% Northern and 30% Southern.
Chingy speaks in a modified Southern Drawl. Like how he pronouces St Louis.
Bernard Hopkins comes from a similar socio-economic situation as Chingy in Philly and does not sound Southern. The only southern influence I see from BeHop is him saying ya'll. He sounds like a Black person from the Northeast.
I agree with this. AA's in St. Louis are known to have a southern (country) accent- the pronunciation of hurr (here) and thurr (there) especially. In fact, I have known AA's from St. Louis who received comments about their southern accents here in Virginia. When I hear the AA St. Louis dialect many times, I normally believe the person could be from Memphis or Louisville. The normal AA Philly accent does not get mistaken for a southern accent in the AA community.
I agree with this. AA's in St. Louis are known to have a southern (country) accent- the pronunciation of hurr (here) and thurr (there) especially. In fact, I have known AA's from St. Louis who received comments about their southern accents here in Virginia. When I hear the AA St. Louis dialect many times, I normally believe the person could be from Memphis or Louisville. The normal AA Philly accent does not get mistaken for a southern accent in the AA community.
Hurr and thurr are one aspect of a St. Louis Black dialect. By that theory, the Philly Blaccent is Southern based on their pronunciation of the word "my". Not exactly the way it works.
Where else in the South do people say "hurr" and "thurr", anyway? Because in the Deep South like Mississippi, they say it something between "hee-ah" and "hee" where the R is dropped. Same in Coastal Southern (East Coast) from Georgia up to Virginia. Same in NYC And Boston where they drop the R. The vowel sound may be not as drawn out, but it's still more similar than "hurr" and "thurr".
And in Philadelphia (and Baltimore), Blacks don't drop the R and pronounce it "heerr" and "derr". So I ask you, how exactly is Philly much different than St. Louis? The "e" sound in Philly changes to an "uh" sound before an intervocalic R kind of how it does in St. Louis.
Strangely similar to how in St. Louis, "here and there" becomes "hurr n durr". Keep in mind, I'm NOT actually saying that Philly Blacks have a Southern accent. You guys are the ones claiming STL Blacks have one. So, I want you guys to show me how much more Southern it is than another Midland dialect like Philly. I think the Philly Blaccent is a Midland dialect with a bit more Southern qualities than the White version. Doesn't mean I consider it a fully Southern accent. Similarly, I think the STL Blaccent is definitely more Southern sounding than the White STL accent. However, the STL White accent is undergoing a Northern Cities Shift which is making it less Midland sounding everyday. This means that Whites in STL and Blacks are diverging more than Whites and Blacks in Philly are, because in Philly (though it's further North than STL), Northern Cities Vowels are not changing the accent. So in a very simplified sense, by comparison White Philadelphians have a Midland sound that is neither North nor South whereas White St. Louisans have more of a true Northern sound, meaning that by comparison, STL Blacks sound more Southern.
Last edited by EddieOlSkool; 04-29-2015 at 08:28 AM..
Listening to Bernard Hopkins I barely hear any glide deletion. Possibly when he says "time". He sounds a lot like a regular Philadelphian. I think some Black Philadelphians sound more Southern but he isn't one. He sounds very Midland, just like other Philadelphians. I think Beanie sounds more Southern than him, though. By the way, I love how Philly his pronunciation of America is. "'Murica!"
What I don't like about these threads is how it's easy to go off one example. Someone like Jay sounds a lot more Northern than someone like Al Sharpton. Or Jada sounds more Northern than even Styles (not that I think Styles sounds very Southern), but Jada is practically textbook New York in his accent. Same with Lil Kim who sounds more Northern than Foxxy.
In my example about St. Louis, I never once said Blacks there sounded Northern. They don't. Chingy definitely has a lot of Southernisms. By comparison another Midland Black man like Bernard Hopkins or Freeway sound much less Southern. But even in the State Property crew it's not consistent. I think Beanie or Omilio or even Peedi Peedi by comparison have more Southern qualities in their accents than other Black Philadelphians. And here is where the Midland is a tricky region. Being that by its nature, the Midland is a transition zone, you can't expect ANYONE, Black or White, to have an even amount of Northern to Southern qualities.
It's further complicated by the fact that some female speakers exhibit some features and male speakers exhibit others. To make things even more confusing, different ethnic groups will take on some Midland features stronger than other groups. Aaaaaaaand even more confusing is how in some ethnic groups like Philly Puerto Ricans, women tend to take on linguistic qualities of White Philadelphian women while Philly PR males tend to take on linguistic qualities of Black Philadelphian males, leading them to have stronger glide deletion and more Southern carryover in combination with Northern vowels like the ones in thought and coffee.
Listen to Philadelphian women vs Philadelphian men. I seriously think that the Northern qualities tend to be stronger in women while the Southern tend to be stronger in men. Irish Philadelphians are a whole different story, too. They tend to have almost every feature in the book. O fronting, glide deletion, Canadian Raising, the strong "aw" sound, highly rhotic, human and huge pronounced like yooman and yooge, dropping of entire consonants...it's really fascinating.
Before I moved to Philadelphia for school, i didn't even know Philadelphia had a distinct accent. When I heard it, I thought it sounded southern. I think it is because of its relative proximity to Baltimore?
I'm from St. Louis and I definitely feel that the blacks here have a heavily southern influenced accent. The whites here talk with the typical nasally Midwestern/rustbelt type accent or have a newscaster accent.
The black St. Louis accent is heavily influenced by Arkansas, Tennessee, and Kentucky, where many of the blacks here come from. Many of the blacks from Little Rock, Memphis, Cincinnati, Louisville etc. even as far as Tulsa and Dallas all have that....hurr, thurr...double r thing. The hyper segregation in St. Louis has also maintained a strong Southern influence in the black accent here, although the younger generation is a lot less stereotypically Southern than our parents and grandparents, who many of them were first generation St. Louisans. Now many of the younger blacks are picking up a mix of a nasally Midwestern accent with the hurr and thurr stuff, its also common for people to say "whatup my guy", calling people guy being a stereotypical Midwestern saying. Whats really crazy is that many of the immigrant kids that go to St. Louis Public sound like African Americans. You haven't seen comedy until you see a Bosnian or Indian kid talk like Chingy and be dead serious.
Also, St. Louis has some interesting social dynamics when it comes to accents. Many of the educated black middle class are extremely boogie or in the words of Murphy Lee "boughetto" and they have no detectable accents. They actually look down on the hurr and thurr stuff as country ass ghetto bs.
I like chilling in the city, so I still use a lot of the local slang. I think the black St. Louis accent is the Midwestern equivalent of the Baltimore accent. Many Baltimore blacks have accents that are heavily influenced by the Carolinas, but its kind of morphed into a unique urban accent with its own kind of northern or urban swagger. I think the St. Louis accent does the same with a Tennessee accent. For example, people from Memphis or Little Rock are noticeably more Southern sounding than your average black St. Louisan. Just like your average person from Newport News or Durham is more Southern than a Baltimore individual. Both being border cities has also definitely influenced the accent.
As far as the Philly accent. It definitely is more closely related to the New York accent than Baltimore or DC in my opinion. Like Wale sounds way more Southern than Beanie in my opinion.
I'm from St. Louis and I definitely feel that the blacks here have a heavily southern influenced accent. The whites here talk with the typical nasally Midwestern/rustbelt type accent or have a newscaster accent.
The black St. Louis accent is heavily influenced by Arkansas, Tennessee, and Kentucky, where many of the blacks here come from. Many of the blacks from Little Rock, Memphis, Cincinnati, Louisville etc. even as far as Tulsa and Dallas all have that....hurr, thurr...double r thing. The hyper segregation in St. Louis has also maintained a strong Southern influence in the black accent here, although the younger generation is a lot less stereotypically Southern than our parents and grandparents, who many of them were first generation St. Louisans. Now many of the younger blacks are picking up a mix of a nasally Midwestern accent with the hurr and thurr stuff, its also common for people to say "whatup my guy", calling people guy being a stereotypical Midwestern saying. Whats really crazy is that many of the immigrant kids that go to St. Louis Public sound like African Americans. You haven't seen comedy until you see a Bosnian or Indian kid talk like Chingy and be dead serious.
Also, St. Louis has some interesting social dynamics when it comes to accents. Many of the educated black middle class are extremely boogie or in the words of Murphy Lee "boughetto" and they have no detectable accents. They actually look down on the hurr and thurr stuff as country ass ghetto bs.
I like chilling in the city, so I still use a lot of the local slang. I think the black St. Louis accent is the Midwestern equivalent of the Baltimore accent. Many Baltimore blacks have accents that are heavily influenced by the Carolinas, but its kind of morphed into a unique urban accent with its own kind of northern or urban swagger. I think the St. Louis accent does the same with a Tennessee accent. For example, people from Memphis or Little Rock are noticeably more Southern sounding than your average black St. Louisan. Just like your average person from Newport News or Durham is more Southern than a Baltimore individual. Both being border cities has also definitely influenced the accent.
As far as the Philly accent. It definitely is more closely related to the New York accent than Baltimore or DC in my opinion. Like Wale sounds way more Southern than Beanie in my opinion.
There is a lot of people with roots from Mississippi in the St. Louis area as well.
I'm from St. Louis and I definitely feel that the blacks here have a heavily southern influenced accent. The whites here talk with the typical nasally Midwestern/rustbelt type accent or have a newscaster accent.
The black St. Louis accent is heavily influenced by Arkansas, Tennessee, and Kentucky, where many of the blacks here come from. Many of the blacks from Little Rock, Memphis, Cincinnati, Louisville etc. even as far as Tulsa and Dallas all have that....hurr, thurr...double r thing. The hyper segregation in St. Louis has also maintained a strong Southern influence in the black accent here, although the younger generation is a lot less stereotypically Southern than our parents and grandparents, who many of them were first generation St. Louisans. Now many of the younger blacks are picking up a mix of a nasally Midwestern accent with the hurr and thurr stuff, its also common for people to say "whatup my guy", calling people guy being a stereotypical Midwestern saying. Whats really crazy is that many of the immigrant kids that go to St. Louis Public sound like African Americans. You haven't seen comedy until you see a Bosnian or Indian kid talk like Chingy and be dead serious.
Also, St. Louis has some interesting social dynamics when it comes to accents. Many of the educated black middle class are extremely boogie or in the words of Murphy Lee "boughetto" and they have no detectable accents. They actually look down on the hurr and thurr stuff as country ass ghetto bs.
I like chilling in the city, so I still use a lot of the local slang. I think the black St. Louis accent is the Midwestern equivalent of the Baltimore accent. Many Baltimore blacks have accents that are heavily influenced by the Carolinas, but its kind of morphed into a unique urban accent with its own kind of northern or urban swagger. I think the St. Louis accent does the same with a Tennessee accent. For example, people from Memphis or Little Rock are noticeably more Southern sounding than your average black St. Louisan. Just like your average person from Newport News or Durham is more Southern than a Baltimore individual. Both being border cities has also definitely influenced the accent.
As far as the Philly accent. It definitely is more closely related to the New York accent than Baltimore or DC in my opinion. Like Wale sounds way more Southern than Beanie in my opinion.
I hear some people say the Baltimore Blaccent has a Northern quality. But, what is it?
Surely it isn't the strong glide deletion
Surely it isn't the way "things" becomes "thangs"
Surely it isn't the way short vowels have a drawl ("can" becomes something "cayan")
Rhoticity maybe? I know Blacks in the Coastal South drop the R heavily. I don't even think WHITE Baltimoreans have a very Northern sound. While Baltimore is a Midland dialect, I feel it picks up enough Tidewater vowels to be considered a "North" Midland dialect. Even Whites in Baltimore will say things like "mah" instead of "my". But at least Whites maintain the tense-lax split common to the Mid-Atlantic. What are the "Northern" traits of the Baltimore Blaccent?
Also, can we just stop classifying "hurr" and "thurr" as Southern? Because Southern Blacks, being a mostly non-rhotic people don't even use those terms. You can hear terms like that in DC's Black population, too.
I'm from St. Louis and I definitely feel that the blacks here have a heavily southern influenced accent. The whites here talk with the typical nasally Midwestern/rustbelt type accent or have a newscaster accent.
The black St. Louis accent is heavily influenced by Arkansas, Tennessee, and Kentucky, where many of the blacks here come from. Many of the blacks from Little Rock, Memphis, Cincinnati, Louisville etc. even as far as Tulsa and Dallas all have that....hurr, thurr...double r thing. The hyper segregation in St. Louis has also maintained a strong Southern influence in the black accent here, although the younger generation is a lot less stereotypically Southern than our parents and grandparents, who many of them were first generation St. Louisans. Now many of the younger blacks are picking up a mix of a nasally Midwestern accent with the hurr and thurr stuff, its also common for people to say "whatup my guy", calling people guy being a stereotypical Midwestern saying. Whats really crazy is that many of the immigrant kids that go to St. Louis Public sound like African Americans. You haven't seen comedy until you see a Bosnian or Indian kid talk like Chingy and be dead serious.
Also, St. Louis has some interesting social dynamics when it comes to accents. Many of the educated black middle class are extremely boogie or in the words of Murphy Lee "boughetto" and they have no detectable accents. They actually look down on the hurr and thurr stuff as country ass ghetto bs.
I like chilling in the city, so I still use a lot of the local slang. I think the black St. Louis accent is the Midwestern equivalent of the Baltimore accent. Many Baltimore blacks have accents that are heavily influenced by the Carolinas, but its kind of morphed into a unique urban accent with its own kind of northern or urban swagger. I think the St. Louis accent does the same with a Tennessee accent. For example, people from Memphis or Little Rock are noticeably more Southern sounding than your average black St. Louisan. Just like your average person from Newport News or Durham is more Southern than a Baltimore individual. Both being border cities has also definitely influenced the accent.
As far as the Philly accent. It definitely is more closely related to the New York accent than Baltimore or DC in my opinion. Like Wale sounds way more Southern than Beanie in my opinion.
The Philly accent by definition of being a Midland dialect isn't more closely related to NYC than Baltimore. Philly and Baltimore are always put in the same region when classified. Examples of how Philly is like Baltimore:
Rhotic (very)
Glide deletion
Tense-lax split
O-fronting (also heard in the South heavily)
On rhymes with Dawn (also Southern) and not Don (opposite of New York)
Now some similarities it shares with New York
Mary-Merry-Marry split (but in Philly merry is pronounced murray)
Strong aw sound (cawfee)
Yeah, Philly and NYC are only similar dialects in movies.
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