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Also, how convenient to say "just take my word for it" when it comes to Northern Whites saying y'all. Look at maps of dialects and y'all is used outside of the South states that border the South like Missouri or Indiana and southern extremities of Illinois. So, if you're making a claim, don't get mad when people ask for you to back it up. I don't have to prove poor Northern Whites don't say y'all, you have to prove they do.
I never said "take my word for it." I said I know people from those areas who use "y'all." I also know that many of the dialect "maps" online are not always accurate and neither is a large amount of the information on the internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool
If Whites in the US can for generations maintain European speech patterns, why is it hard to believe the same would apply to Blacks? Many White accents in the US have quirky sounds because of strong European carryover. Think Upper Midwest and the Scandinavian connection.
Ii agree with you in regards to the bold.
As an equivalency, you should consider that blacks in America have maintained West African speech patterns, especially in relation to AAVE/BVE which many Americans, and maybe yourself view as "southern" or broken English as mentioned earlier. There are specific speech patterns in BVE that are directly related to West African dialects in regards to word placement and tense use. Those things are not southern and again, most black people who are not southerners, don't have a southern accent.
I never said "take my word for it." I said I know people from those areas who use "y'all." I also know that many of the dialect "maps" online are not always accurate and neither is a large amount of the information on the internet.
Ii agree with you in regards to the bold.
As an equivalency, you should consider that blacks in America have maintained West African speech patterns, especially in relation to AAVE/BVE which many Americans, and maybe yourself view as "southern" or broken English as mentioned earlier. There are specific speech patterns in BVE that are directly related to West African dialects in regards to word placement and tense use. Those things are not southern and again, most black people who are not southerners, don't have a southern accent.
Not that simple actually. The black accent you'll hear in the city Atlanta is considerably more southern than what you"ll hear in the city New Orleans, where blacks sound less southern than those in the city of Chicago.
Why is that most black people, regardless of the region of the country you're in, tend to have a southern accent? They may have generations of their family living in the north, where next to NO ONE has a southern accent, yet most of the blacks do. You can call it having southern roots, having family members from the south, but this exists almost everywhere, even when they have no family in the south and their family has been rooted in the north for generations.
Anyone care to shed light on this? Or is it just a cultural accent?
Being a white Southern, I can definitely tell an African-American who grew up in the North versus someone who grew up in the South.....the annunciation is very different!
Just your personal perception? If so, that is your personal view and is not based in reality. I am sure that I have known more black people in my life than you have being that I am black and I went to an HBCU for college with black people from all over the world (including Europe).
The speaking patterns you are speaking on above based on regionalism are region ways of speaking and are not "southern."
I am black and as stated, don't have a southern accent. My father's family was from SC and were enslaved people in SC, NC, and VA going back a couple hundred years. My dad does not have a southern accent, neither did his dad, and even his grandad (my great grandfather) who moved to Ohio when he was 2 years old did not have a southern accent and neither do my elderly cousins who are still alive who were older than he was when they moved to Ohio (6-8 years old). None of them have southern accents because they went to school in Ohio and adopted Great Lakes regional speaking patterns like all black people did who moved during the Great Migration.
Most black people who are descended from southern slaves (who was not reared in the south) do not have a southern accent nor "southern aspects to their speech" other than the minute ones that are related to BVE and even those are few and far in between.
I will admit that black people, we have a....rhythm to our speech and intonations and the way we fluctuate our voices in particular situations, but they are not southern. If that were the case then all of us descended from non-southerners wouldn't have it. Someone else mentioned earlier in the older part of the thread that president Obama changes his voice when he speaks to a black audience, IMO he is less formal in those circumstances and he uses the speech fluctuations I am speaking of, but he doesn't sound southern and is not descended from southern slaves. FWIW, his wife is descended from the same county in VA as part of my dad's family. Neither she nor her mother speak "southern" even though they are from Chicago which received a huge percentage of black migrants in the 20th century.
I'll give you this example:
Most Northern Whites who speak in true Northern dialects don't use glide deletion or "o" fronting. Glide deletion is when an "I" sound glides from "ah" to "ee" as in the word "glide" phonetically written as "glah-eeh-d". The deletion of the glide takes away the tensing of the "I" sound which is "ee" and leaves only the beginning "ah".
So, time becomes tahm. My becomes mah. I becomes ah. I'm becomes ahm. Side becomes sahd. And so on.
Glide deletion is present in Whites from the South. But it's not a West African speech pattern. It came from England it is believed. So there's one aspect that Southern speech has left on Black speech in some Northern cities, even if in few words. Black people in NYC still employ glide deletion in words like "my", "time" and "I". These aren't the only words, but if you hear otherwise textbook Northern Blacks like Jadakiss or Jay-Z, they still do this. Spike Lee on the other hand has a speech not far from Italians who don't employ these patterns, so it's not EVERY Black person in the North.
Another Southern speech pattern not from West Africa but of English descent is "o fronting". This is the opposite of glide deletion. Long o sounds become diphthongs (that is, more vowel sounds occur) and "o" sounds more like "eh-oh" or "ah-oh". Some Northern Blacks will employ this sporadically in words like "phone", "road", and "Joe". The "o" diphthong is again NOT from West African speech but England and is the de facto pronunciation of the long O there. This is evidenced in the fact that it's seen less in Gullah populations but more in Blacks from Mississippi or Alabama. Not consistent across Black speech at all, because Southeastern Blacks don't tend to have it whereas those of the Gulf do.
So, those are some basic Southern speech patterns left in some Blacks from the North. They're not African as their origin is England. Do all Northern Blacks have it? Obviously not. Is it enough that people make a connection? Well, this thread is here so obviously yes. Do Black people have a certain voice quality based on genetics? Maybe. But, you still can't ignore leftover Southern speech patterns that even Southern Whites have.
I feel you take it personally that we're saying this about Black speech. Could be because the region you hail from is one where Blacks have adopted Great Lakes speech. I will admit that Detroit and Cleveland have very few Southern sounding Blacks. Take a trip to Chicago and witness accents that sound almost like they're from Mississippi, however. I do meet Blacks that have that Great Lakes, strong Northern Cities Vowel Shift and I always ask them if they're from Detroit and if the answer isn't yes, they say they're from near Detroit or Northern Ohio.
Also, residinghere, I went back and saw that you knew what glide deletion is. Haven't you noticed it in Black speech of some Northern cities, even if sporadic? That's not West African.
Most Northern Whites who speak in true Northern dialects don't use glide deletion or "o" fronting. Glide deletion is when an "I" sound glides from "ah" to "ee" as in the word "glide" phonetically written as "glah-eeh-d". The deletion of the glide takes away the tensing of the "I" sound which is "ee" and leaves only the beginning "ah".
So, time becomes tahm. My becomes mah. I becomes ah. I'm becomes ahm. Side becomes sahd. And so on.
Glide deletion is present in Whites from the South. But it's not a West African speech pattern. It came from England it is believed. So there's one aspect that Southern speech has left on Black speech in some Northern cities, even if in few words. Black people in NYC still employ glide deletion in words like "my", "time" and "I". These aren't the only words, but if you hear otherwise textbook Northern Blacks like Jadakiss or Jay-Z, they still do this. Spike Lee on the other hand has a speech not far from Italians who don't employ these patterns, so it's not EVERY Black person in the North.
Another Southern speech pattern not from West Africa but of English descent is "o fronting". This is the opposite of glide deletion. Long o sounds become diphthongs (that is, more vowel sounds occur) and "o" sounds more like "eh-oh" or "ah-oh". Some Northern Blacks will employ this sporadically in words like "phone", "road", and "Joe". The "o" diphthong is again NOT from West African speech but England and is the de facto pronunciation of the long O there. This is evidenced in the fact that it's seen less in Gullah populations but more in Blacks from Mississippi or Alabama. Not consistent across Black speech at all, because Southeastern Blacks don't tend to have it whereas those of the Gulf do.
So, those are some basic Southern speech patterns left in some Blacks from the North. They're not African as their origin is England. Do all Northern Blacks have it? Obviously not. Is it enough that people make a connection? Well, this thread is here so obviously yes. Do Black people have a certain voice quality based on genetics? Maybe. But, you still can't ignore leftover Southern speech patterns that even Southern Whites have.
I feel you take it personally that we're saying this about Black speech. Could be because the region you hail from is one where Blacks have adopted Great Lakes speech. I will admit that Detroit and Cleveland have very few Southern sounding Blacks. Take a trip to Chicago and witness accents that sound almost like they're from Mississippi, however. I do meet Blacks that have that Great Lakes, strong Northern Cities Vowel Shift and I always ask them if they're from Detroit and if the answer isn't yes, they say they're from near Detroit or Northern Ohio.
Uhhh.. Detroiters have very southern sounding accents. Just about all cities who experienced great migration do.
Not that simple actually. The black accent you'll hear in the city Atlanta is considerably more southern than what you"ll hear in the city New Orleans, where blacks sound less southern than those in the city of Chicago.
Not to be mean, but this is a ridiculous comment.
I lived in the city of Atlanta for over a decade and the Atlanta accent of native black Atlantans is NOT a typical southern accent. It is VERY hard to understand and is nothing like what most people consider as a "southern accent." Most people consider a TN or VA accent to be "southern." Or even south GA but not the city of Atlanta when it comes to black people especially. Black New Orleanians also have a VERY disctinct accent and it is unique. As I stated earlier in the thread there are many types of "southern accents" which is why it is kind of silly to say that "most black people" in the USA have a "southern accent."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaszilla
Uhhh.. Detroiters have very southern sounding accents. Just about all cities who experienced great migration do.
Again, this is pretty ridiculous too. I live in Toledo, Ohio and our city is 30% black and experience a HUGE increase in black population during the Great Migration. We are only 45 minutes south of Detroit and black people here do not sound southern and neither do any black people I know in Detroit. I have family there as well. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in the SE MI or NW OH region that has even a hint of a southern accent.
Many of you don't seem to know what an accent is.
People whose grandparents and great grandparents migrated to Detroit do not have a southern accent. Just like 2nd generation white and hispanic immigrants lose their parents accents, so did black children born in the north in the 1910s to 1970s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool
Also, residinghere, I went back and saw that you knew what glide deletion is. Haven't you noticed it in Black speech of some Northern cities, even if sporadic? That's not West African.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool
I'll give you this example:
Most Northern Whites who speak in true Northern dialects don't use glide deletion or "o" fronting. Glide deletion is when an "I" sound glides from "ah" to "ee" as in the word "glide" phonetically written as "glah-eeh-d". The deletion of the glide takes away the tensing of the "I" sound which is "ee" and leaves only the beginning "ah".
So, time becomes tahm. My becomes mah. I becomes ah. I'm becomes ahm. Side becomes sahd. And so on.
Glide deletion is present in Whites from the South. But it's not a West African speech pattern. It came from England it is believed. So there's one aspect that Southern speech has left on Black speech in some Northern cities, even if in few words. Black people in NYC still employ glide deletion in words like "my", "time" and "I". These aren't the only words, but if you hear otherwise textbook Northern Blacks like Jadakiss or Jay-Z, they still do this. Spike Lee on the other hand has a speech not far from Italians who don't employ these patterns, so it's not EVERY Black person in the North.
Another Southern speech pattern not from West Africa but of English descent is "o fronting". This is the opposite of glide deletion. Long o sounds become diphthongs (that is, more vowel sounds occur) and "o" sounds more like "eh-oh" or "ah-oh". Some Northern Blacks will employ this sporadically in words like "phone", "road", and "Joe". The "o" diphthong is again NOT from West African speech but England and is the de facto pronunciation of the long O there. This is evidenced in the fact that it's seen less in Gullah populations but more in Blacks from Mississippi or Alabama. Not consistent across Black speech at all, because Southeastern Blacks don't tend to have it whereas those of the Gulf do.
So, those are some basic Southern speech patterns left in some Blacks from the North. They're not African as their origin is England. Do all Northern Blacks have it? Obviously not. Is it enough that people make a connection? Well, this thread is here so obviously yes. Do Black people have a certain voice quality based on genetics? Maybe. But, you still can't ignore leftover Southern speech patterns that even Southern Whites have.
I feel you take it personally that we're saying this about Black speech. Could be because the region you hail from is one where Blacks have adopted Great Lakes speech. I will admit that Detroit and Cleveland have very few Southern sounding Blacks. Take a trip to Chicago and witness accents that sound almost like they're from Mississippi, however. I do meet Blacks that have that Great Lakes, strong Northern Cities Vowel Shift and I always ask them if they're from Detroit and if the answer isn't yes, they say they're from near Detroit or Northern Ohio.
On the bold, wanted to state that I'm not taking it personally. I actually am just a pretty blunt person when it comes to relaying specific information (most information actually) and I am an avid amateur historian and genealogist with a focus on black history, anthropology, and sociology in America. So I find the conversation interesting and take nothing of it personally.
I find it very odd and funny that so many white posters though think that blacks have a southern accent. As stated earlier, I feel most of the people stating that don't know any black people personally and are going by what they are seeing portrayed in the media.
On glide deletion and especially to the pronunciations that you spoke of above, I do agree there is a southern influence on some black people's pronunciation. But that it varies widely by geographic area and that the majority of black people who were born and raised in the northern and western portions of the US do not have the specific pronunciations you are speaking of. I say "my" with a long "i" sound. Every black person who is from where I'm (also said with a long "i" sound) from pronounce these words in the typical English format that you specified, which is non-southern in nature. I knew a lot of Californians and had a few friends from Denver and a lot from the tri-state area of NY/NJ/CT in college who are still good friends and very few of them speak in that manner and the only ones that do have a NY accent. You can tell they are from that area because they have a NY accent and not a southern one. Also, many black people purposefully change their natural speaking patterns when they are rapping or entertaining others. The way that Jay-Z speaks on songs or interludes is probably not how he speaks in real life with his family/friends. The same can be seen in regards to English entertainers who you cannot tell have an English accent when they are entertaining.
A glide deletion, like BVE does not indicate that someone has an "accent." It indicates pronunciation influences from a specific geographic area and like I stated earlier, BVE has some influences from southern speaking patterns due to BVE being primarily created in the southern portion of our country. But saying "mah" instead of "my" is not an accent as that correlates to a specific sound to one's words that is related to their geographic area of rearing, and I hope we can agree on that as one can say "mah" and have a NY accent or a southern accent.
I lived in the city of Atlanta for over a decade and the Atlanta accent of native black Atlantans is NOT a typical southern accent. It is VERY hard to understand and is nothing like what most people consider as a "southern accent." Most people consider a TN or VA accent to be "southern." Or even south GA but not the city of Atlanta when it comes to black people especially. Black New Orleanians also have a VERY disctinct accent and it is unique. As I stated earlier in the thread there are many types of "southern accents" which is why it is kind of silly to say that "most black people" in the USA have a "southern accent."
Again, this is pretty ridiculous too. I live in Toledo, Ohio and our city is 30% black and experience a HUGE increase in black population during the Great Migration. We are only 45 minutes south of Detroit and black people here do not sound southern and neither do any black people I know in Detroit. I have family there as well. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in the SE MI or NW OH region that has even a hint of a southern accent.
Many of you don't seem to know what an accent is.
People whose grandparents and great grandparents migrated to Detroit do not have a southern accent. Just like 2nd generation white and hispanic immigrants lose their parents accents, so did black children born in the north in the 1910s to 1970s.
On the bold, wanted to state that I'm not taking it personally. I actually am just a pretty blunt person when it comes to relaying specific information (most information actually) and I am an avid amateur historian and genealogist with a focus on black history, anthropology, and sociology in America. So I find the conversation interesting and take nothing of it personally.
I find it very odd and funny that so many white posters though think that blacks have a southern accent. As stated earlier, I feel most of the people stating that don't know any black people personally and are going by what they are seeing portrayed in the media.
On glide deletion and especially to the pronunciations that you spoke of above, I do agree there is a southern influence on some black people's pronunciation. But that it varies widely by geographic area and that the majority of black people who were born and raised in the northern and western portions of the US do not have the specific pronunciations you are speaking of. I say "my" with a long "i" sound. Every black person who is from where I'm (also said with a long "i" sound) from pronounce these words in the typical English format that you specified, which is non-southern in nature. I knew a lot of Californians and had a few friends from Denver and a lot from the tri-state area of NY/NJ/CT in college who are still good friends and very few of them speak in that manner and the only ones that do have a NY accent. You can tell they are from that area because they have a NY accent and not a southern one. Also, many black people purposefully change their natural speaking patterns when they are rapping or entertaining others. The way that Jay-Z speaks on songs or interludes is probably not how he speaks in real life with his family/friends. The same can be seen in regards to English entertainers who you cannot tell have an English accent when they are entertaining.
A glide deletion, like BVE does not indicate that someone has an "accent." It indicates pronunciation influences from a specific geographic area and like I stated earlier, BVE has some influences from southern speaking patterns due to BVE being primarily created in the southern portion of our country. But saying "mah" instead of "my" is not an accent as that correlates to a specific sound to one's words that is related to their geographic area of rearing, and I hope we can agree on that as one can say "mah" and have a NY accent or a southern accent.
Yeah I agree saying "mah" doesn't give one a full Southern accent in the same way saying "pha-own" for phone doesn't do it, either. If this was the case, Philadelphian would be considered a Southern accent.
Now, you said that those sounds aren't Southern in origin but rather English. But you do realize that a large portion of the southern dialect actually did come from England, correct? Kind of like how many northern dialects came from many non-british European countries. So, the southern accent is definitely very English in origin. I was only mentioning England in response to your comment about black speech originating in West Africa. If both whites and blacks in the south share commonalities derived from English speech, one would not be lying if they said that these speech patterns spread widely across the South would be then called southern.
So, do I believe using sporadic glide deletion is considered a Southere accent? No. Just like how I don't believe that Baltimoreans and Chicagoans sharing pronunciation in words like bad, mad, glad, path, bath, actor, handle, span, man, last, or lamb means that Baltimore people speak in Northern Cities Vowel Shift. My original point of Southern speech patterns making their way North with Blacks still stands, however. Like I said, a Black person can never speak AAVE and still have Southern influence on their speech, or speak AAVE even in a non-American accent like Ali G does.
However, in Chicago where OP and I ate from, it's not simply AAVE. It is sometimes a fully Southern accent especially in older people. The young ones don't tend to have this.
At least we can agree that whoever said Detroit Blacks sound Southern has no idea what they're talking about.
I lived in the city of Atlanta for over a decade and the Atlanta accent of native black Atlantans is NOT a typical southern accent. It is VERY hard to understand and is nothing like what most people consider as a "southern accent." Most people consider a TN or VA accent to be "southern." Or even south GA but not the city of Atlanta when it comes to black people especially. Black New Orleanians also have a VERY disctinct accent and it is unique. As I stated earlier in the thread there are many types of "southern accents" which is why it is kind of silly to say that "most black people" in the USA have a "southern accent."
As a minnesotan who currently lives in Alabama, imo MOST black ppl in the midwest (chicago, detroit, clevend) sound very southern. Steve Harvey sound very southern for example. The ppl on hardcore pawn also sound southern.
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