Why do most black people have a southern accent? (history, compared)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes look at Blackish. Do you really think that those kids, or the wife, all of whom sound white, ever speak BVE, except if they are mimicking some one? These are the products of the black upper middle class, growing up in the suburbs, going to private school, or both.
Right. Black-ish is an accurate reflection of the everyday private lives of the Black upper middle class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
There is a definite difference in the informal speech of highly educated blacks when compared to those completely lacking education.
You said that AAVE would disappear from the Black upper middle class. That's never going to happen. While most educated Black people are not going to sound like Fetty Wap in private, they will continue to use AAVE.
Where was slavery most prominent, where did most black people come from in this country??
By the way a southern accent isn't the only thing black people picked up resulting from 450 years of slavery.
I live in NY so I have many opportunities to hear informal speech among AAs. Streets, subways, bars. You cannot fully segregate in NYC, especially as educated AAs and Caribbean blacks tend to have closer ties than their less educated brethren. Remember in NYC the neighbors are a few yards away, so as they leave their house walking to their cars, I can hear what they are saying, and in how they are saying this.
Were I in a car centered city your argument would fly, but not in NYC where daily I hear Africans speaking their languages, so can even begin to guess where they might be from. We have few secrets in NYC, so even though this is a highly segregated city, it is also one where we are fairly knowledgeable of each other, true even for whites, who are arguably the most (self) segregated of us.
AAs have different levels of Southern influenced English. This is based on the region FROM where there ancestors migrated, the contacts they retain with their relatives down South, and of course social class, generation, and education.
This is what distinguishes speech by AAs in terms of how others view them. This isn't to suggest that a NYC AA has a Southern accent, but it is to say that there are Southern influences. This influences even spread to US born Caribbean descended people (black, Hispanic, and Indian) to whom the AA accent becomes the "host" American accent.
An educated AA will say "computah", where as his white equivalent in NYC will say "computerrrrrrrrr". The type of AA who NATURALLY says "computerrrr" is most likely NOT speaking BVE, or at least not more than a white millennial male will use BVE. I really think that we have moved beyond any expectation that an educated black must sound like an educated white. They are merely expected to speak Standard English.
Maybe the issue is how is BVE defined. Is it merely the use of a few "urban" phrases, some now even used on network TV and understood by all, even if not accepted corporate speech? Is it slightly relaxed grammar, but spoken in Standard English?
Or are we talking about talking about deeper more basilect speech patterns which DIRECTLY connect to the mesolect English creoles of the Caribbean, and the Pidgin English of various parts of West Africa. The type which marks the black as uneducated and from a lower social class.
I can hear an AA speaking, and can tell where he fits in terms of education and social status. And I am talking about a cell phone conversation where he is speaking to a peer. I know who is going to work as a lawyer, and who is going to work as a security guard.
On the bold, I do believe that NYC is unique due to NYC having an extremely large immigrant population. But even there, many blacks continue to use BVE.
BVE is not about "urban" phrases. It is a distinctive speaking pattern such as "I don't know what I'm gon be doin later on." It is a placement of words and use of specific phrases. It is not slang.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
Here is my question to you. When AAs, who don't know you, hear you over the phone, what do they think of you? Do they think that you are white, or do they think that you are black?
I am talking about formal telephone conversations, when your grammar will be in sync with that of mainstream (white) American English, though your accent and tone might not be.
Many millennial black professionals sound white, maybe because they grew up with high exposure to whites, or maybe they have a lower ethnic identification, and feel compelled to fully integrate with whites.
Now do you think that the "white sounding" black will revert to deep BVE, with its African based grammatical structures which tie it to the Anglophone Caribbean, and beyond that to the various English pidgins of West Africa?
I will suggest to you that in the Caribbean there are a far narrower range of occasions where Standard English MUST be used, and so creole forms a much more central part of daily communication than it does in the USA.
Except under the MOST formal situations some form of creole maybe used. Go to a bank teller and they will likely use a mesolect variety, ditto on a Caribbean airline. The nurses in the doctors office. Only the doctor will START with Standard Caribbean English (because he must establish an image if being highly educated), though might revert to a mesolect variety if the patient is uncomfortable.
How many ads do you see on TV in the USA, using deep BVE? Well that is standard in the Caribbean especially when ever humor is involved.
I say this to say that there is more style shift away from BVE, even in informal speech, among educated AAs (and other blacks) living in the USA (and other majority white societies) than is the case in the Caribbean.
In fact there is NO WAY that Obama would EVER be elected in the Caribbean as his speech is WAY too formal, so he will not be trusted. Caribbean politicians have to use BVE, and must also dance. As a black man in the USA he HAS to speak as he does!
On the bold, they would think I am white. I have a "white" Irish name. I do not have a southern accent. I annunciate all of my words when I'm on the phone. I was a customer service manager for many years in a call center and I remember speaking to a customer in Chicago who told me I didn't know what it was like to be black in America. I told him I was black and my husband is from Chicago and he had me name some streets to "prove" I was black lol.
I took a second and got out of my professional voice for him and he immediately said "yeah sister, you are black!" And proceeded to tell me I should understand his struggle lol.
I agree that the Obamas must speak in a specific way just like all professional black Americans in order to succeed in the professional environment. But "wearing the mask" is a part of our culture and as such, BVE will not disappear from our culture because we have mastered this necessity. Just because we are a certain way though in public does not mean we are that way in private and as stated, older generations were actually more likely to demean "poor language" versus my generation or millenials. My grandmother, who was super bourgie would speak very ill of any of us grandchildren if she heard us speak to her in BVE fashion. Yet at parties and family get togethers she did the same thing, as did my mom and as did my mom's little sister and as do I and as does my teenage son.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
Yes look at Blackish. Do you really think that those kids, or the wife, all of whom sound white, ever speak BVE, except if they are mimicking some one? These are the products of the black upper middle class, growing up in the suburbs, going to private school, or both.
They have no trace of Southern influence, or any thing that people might consider "black". They will pass as white on the phone.
In fact this show indicates the decline of BVE across generations. Even the father, speaking informally, doesn't speak like his parents. They too I am sure don't speak the much heavier BVE that their parents would have spoken in the 50s, especially as these would have been Southern, likely rural or small town.
There is a definite difference in the informal speech of highly educated blacks when compared to those completely lacking education.
Blackish is not representative of a real family, though I do like that show, it is hilarious. But Tracy Ross is Diana Ross's daughter and I have heard Diana Ross speak in BVE in interviews. She grew up in the projects in Detroit. I am certain all her children know of BVE and speak in it in certain situations. The other cast members, of course they do as well. If you are speaking of the fictionalized family, then the grandparents and the dad use BVE and so as a result the kids will pick it up. They would figure out, like all black kids, that it is something for family and home.
If you have never read it, you should read and think about Paul L Dunbar's poem - We Wear the Mask. It was written in the late 1800s but is still relevant for black American life today in that we hide many aspects of our true selves from the general public due to fear of lack of opportunity or of ridicule. I do feel that many black immigrants do not grow up with our culture, especially 2nd or 3rd generation due to having that parent/grandparent from the home country. They will retain some aspect of that home country. Us black Americans, we have retained and will continue to retain this cultural aspect of our country.
In regards to the 1950s and southern speaking, my own family all lived in Ohio in the 1950s. My grandmother was born in Ohio in the 1930s. Her mother was born in Ohio in 1914 and her father was born in TN in 1910 but moved to Ohio when he was 10 years old. He did not have a southern accent and all of my family that I knew (my great grandmother's line I have traced back to PA in the 1780s) speak/spoke BVE. The older generations wanted much moreso to "prove" how they were just as good as white people so speaking, at school or in public or in front of any of our church people in BVE or "broken English" would have been mortifying and potentially shameful to where grandma or great grandma would lecture you to near tears about how you were making yourself and the family look ignorant. Yet, again, BVE is still in my family. It serves a purpose in specific situations.
Again, I do feel that due to your immigrant background that you may not really understand where I'm coming from or what I'm speaking about due to the cultural differences, but for most black Americans even our poor grandmas (mine was not poor) did not speak "broken English" very often and chided the children for it, yet they did around adults and kids emulate the adults with other kids so they pick it up for social interacting with black Americans.
I don't often go into BVE speech patterns with African immigrant friends or West Indian or black European friends who are mostly West Indian in ancestry as well from Jamaica and Barbados by way of England. It is reserved for family and my close American black friends.
I suggest that you listen to highly educated black millennials who come from upper middle class families. Many sound "white". In fact I can bet a whole number of white kids sound "blacker" than they do. This being especially true for the females.
There is an emerging gap between the black elite and the black poor, in fact even bigger than between blacks and whites. All those kids going to private school, or who live in the suburbs, aren't going to be a treasure trove of black American culture, I can assure you.
Folks need to just deal with the emerging segregation WITHIN the black population.
Again, I sound "white." Though I do not accept that label. I sound like myself - a black woman.
As stated my family is primarily middle class we have a lot of highly educated millenials, all of them speak BVE at home at family gatherings.
Again, maybe from your background, you don't realize this. I have many cousins who went to private schools, who live in the suburbs and who speak BVE and aren't ashamed to do so with family/friends. It is a part of our shared experience.
I will also state that it seems you view BVE poorly with your comments. I also don't understand why you would even think that BVE is diminishing. Other black American posters have also chimed in and told you that it is not going away. It is a long lasting part of our culture and will stay for a long time still. And again, many educated black people now recognize that it is a part of our culture connection to Africa and they are not as adamant about stamping it out of children as our moms and grandmas were in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Right. Black-ish is an accurate reflection of the everyday private lives of the Black upper middle class.
You said that AAVE would disappear from the Black upper middle class. That's never going to happen. While most educated Black people are not going to sound like Fetty Wap in private, they will continue to use AAVE.
See above quote. I didn't read before posting my prior response but this poster is right. We will not stop using BVE. It is not some sort of backward, crazy sounding speech either like you may think it is, but it will continue to be a mainstay in black American families. And again, Blackish is not a real family and is not representative of black American middle class families.
Again, I sound "white." Though I do not accept that label. I sound like myself - a black woman.
As stated my family is primarily middle class we have a lot of highly educated millenials, all of them speak BVE at home at family gatherings.
Again, maybe from your background, you don't realize this. I have many cousins who went to private schools, who live in the suburbs and who speak BVE and aren't ashamed to do so with family/friends. It is a part of our shared experience.
I will also state that it seems you view BVE poorly with your comments. I also don't understand why you would even think that BVE is diminishing. Other black American posters have also chimed in and told you that it is not going away. It is a long lasting part of our culture and will stay for a long time still. And again, many educated black people now recognize that it is a part of our culture connection to Africa and they are not as adamant about stamping it out of children as our moms and grandmas were in the past.
See above quote. I didn't read before posting my prior response but this poster is right. We will not stop using BVE. It is not some sort of backward, crazy sounding speech either like you may think it is, but it will continue to be a mainstay in black American families. And again, Blackish is not a real family and is not representative of black American middle class families.
A Black man raised in Northern accent territory using his Northern accent and at times using BVE despite not deviating from Northern accent patterns. Notice his Vowel Shift in words like O'Hare (pronounced oh he-air).
An example of how BVE can be spoken with non-Southern accents. And really, this guy has some of the least Southern speech patterns ever. It's worth noting that he markets to primarily Black audiences so he doesn't have any reason to dump BVE.
Many Blacks in Detroit sound like him. I wouldn't lump Black Detroit speech with most other "Midwest" Blacks especially Chicago. I haven't met many Black Chicagoans that sound like this guy. One thing Black Chicagoans encounter with Black Detroit people is they are fully rhotic while Black Chicagoans are partially rhotic to not rhotic at all.
While I know Black Chicagoans are not fully Southern in their speech and culture, their speech retains a lot of Southern flavor and their vowels don't shift North unlike in NYC or Detroit or Boston. A Black person from those cities will say the word "can't" like "kee-uhnt" but in Chicago will say "kay-ant" with the Southern drawl. Another example is the word "dog". Northern Blacks will say "dawg" (NYC and Boston) or the GenAm pronunciation of "dog" (Detroit and Philly) but in Chicago it's "dah-uhg" or even "daw-oohg" drawing out the short Vowel to an extreme in a very Southern pattern. Of course it's not as weird as in the MD/VA/NC way of saying "dug" but Chicago Blacks have a more Deep South/Gulf way of talking than an Atlantic Coastal Southern.
Last edited by EddieOlSkool; 09-24-2015 at 08:03 AM..
A Black man raised in Northern accent territory using his Northern accent and at times using BVE despite not deviating from Northern accent patterns. Notice his Vowel Shift in words like O'Hare (pronounced oh he-air).
An example of how BVE can be spoken with non-Southern accents. And really, this guy has some of the least Southern speech patterns ever. It's worth noting that he markets to primarily Black audiences so he doesn't have any reason to dump BVE.
Many Blacks in Detroit sound like him. I wouldn't lump Black Detroit speech with most other "Midwest" Blacks especially Chicago. I haven't met many Black Chicagoans that sound like this guy. One thing Black Chicagoans encounter with Black Detroit people is they are fully rhotic while Black Chicagoans are partially rhotic to not rhotic at all.
While I know Black Chicagoans are not fully Southern in their speech and culture, their speech retains a lot of Southern flavor and their vowels don't shift North unlike in NYC or Detroit or Boston. A Black person from those cities will say the word "can't" like "kee-uhnt" but in Chicago will say "kay-ant" with the Southern drawl. Another example is the word "dog". Northern Blacks will say "dawg" (NYC and Boston) or the GenAm pronunciation of "dog" (Detroit and Philly) but in Chicago it's "dah-uhg" or even "daw-oohg" drawing out the short Vowel to an extreme in a very Southern pattern. Of course it's not as weird as in the MD/VA/NC way of saying "dug" but Chicago Blacks have a more Deep South/Gulf way of talking than an Atlantic Coastal Southern.
A Black man raised in Northern accent territory using his Northern accent and at times using BVE despite not deviating from Northern accent patterns. Notice his Vowel Shift in words like O'Hare (pronounced oh he-air).
An example of how BVE can be spoken with non-Southern accents. And really, this guy has some of the least Southern speech patterns ever. It's worth noting that he markets to primarily Black audiences so he doesn't have any reason to dump BVE.
Many Blacks in Detroit sound like him. I wouldn't lump Black Detroit speech with most other "Midwest" Blacks especially Chicago. I haven't met many Black Chicagoans that sound like this guy. One thing Black Chicagoans encounter with Black Detroit people is they are fully rhotic while Black Chicagoans are partially rhotic to not rhotic at all.
While I know Black Chicagoans are not fully Southern in their speech and culture, their speech retains a lot of Southern flavor and their vowels don't shift North unlike in NYC or Detroit or Boston. A Black person from those cities will say the word "can't" like "kee-uhnt" but in Chicago will say "kay-ant" with the Southern drawl. Another example is the word "dog". Northern Blacks will say "dawg" (NYC and Boston) or the GenAm pronunciation of "dog" (Detroit and Philly) but in Chicago it's "dah-uhg" or even "daw-oohg" drawing out the short Vowel to an extreme in a very Southern pattern. Of course it's not as weird as in the MD/VA/NC way of saying "dug" but Chicago Blacks have a more Deep South/Gulf way of talking than an Atlantic Coastal Southern.
I think you generalized a bit to much here. For example, MD/VA/NC. The only city in this area that pronounces dog that way is Baltimore. You will not hear "dug" in DC and I have family in North Carolina and you won't hear "dug" there either.
I think you generalized a bit to much here. For example, MD/VA/NC. The only city in this area that pronounces dog that way is Baltimore. You will not hear "dug" in DC and I have family in North Carolina and you won't hear "dug" there either.
I'm not the extent of dug and it probably isn't large. That being said, even if Blacks in Baltimore are the only ones to have such an odd pronunciation, it probably evolved on its own over possibly centuries if this is the case. From what I understand, Maryland always had a large number of Blacks anyway before the Great Migration and that number went up significantly after that.
Although Blacks in Bmore do have a weird accent definitely. Is it definitively Southern? I don't know. It sounds considerably more Southern than the Philly Blaccent with its long U sounds and it's more Southern lean than the White accent. While White Baltimore people will say "things", Blacks say "thangs". Whites have nasally flat a-vowels on certain words where Blacks have a Southern drawl. Compare White Baltimorean "can't" said as "keeant" with Black Baltimorean "kayant". Sometimes they also have that pseudo African intonation heard in Charleston and Savannah, too. So, I don't know if I'd say the Black Baltimore accent ISN'T Southern. The White one is more of a twangy Philly but the Black one can sound super Southern at times, even if they retain White pronunciations on some words like "call" and "caught" which sound like the same way White people say those words in Baltimore, but also Boston and Chicago.
It's funny because like all Blaccents, there isn't a strong consistent pattern. Some Blacks in NYC for example sound almost exactly like Whites (Spike Lee and Denzel) whereas some have more universal Black mainstream accents like Al Sharpton. Same in Chicago. Some Blacks like Common and Kanye have a Northern influenced sound but some like R. Kelly or Jennifer Hudson sound more Southern influenced. It's never consistent and whoever says it is just is an ideologue with a point to prove.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
