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View Poll Results: Are Pittsburgh, Erie, and Buffalo Northeastern or Midwestern?
Northeastern 42 50.60%
Midwestern 10 12.05%
Mixed 31 37.35%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-21-2016, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I wonder how much of the Southern metro figures are attributed to migrants versus the real/perceived character of those metros?
I don't know what the "real/perceived character" of these metros is. Economic fortunes change. There was once a time when manufacturing boomed and people left the South and Appalachia for cities like Detroit, Chicago and Pittsburgh. Did anybody complain then that the character of these metros wasn't "real"? You can't hate on a city for becoming more affluent and educated because people are moving there. It is what it is.
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Old 01-21-2016, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,220,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
The map shows that to be an obvious exception to the rule. Overwhelmingly, The Northeast and Midwest are divided among Soda or Pop. And as it pertains to this discussion, Pittsburgh/Buffalo/Erie clearly have some linguistic influence from The Midwest.
They are clearly going to pot shot Mayweather style here.

"But there are working class White people in France."

"But they say 'pop' in Honolulu."

"But they made steel in Birmingham, Alabama!"


We're talking, in general terms, about a constellation of characteristics here that are common among Upper Midwestern metros.
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Old 01-21-2016, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
The map shows that to be an obvious exception to the rule. Overwhelmingly, The Northeast and Midwest are divided among Soda or Pop. And as it pertains to this discussion, Pittsburgh/Buffalo/Erie clearly have some linguistic influence from The Midwest.
I wish there was a map that shows if people say Sneakers or Gym Shoes, as the latter is pretty common in MI. I don't think people from Buffalo say Gym Shoes though.
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Old 01-21-2016, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,414 posts, read 11,910,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I said the "core" of the Rust Belt. That's why metro Pittsburgh and Detroit's population collapsed after 1970 while Boston's did not.
The Pittsburgh MSA as a whole is only down around 15% from its 1970 value. Certainly it shrunk, but I'm not sure I'd say it was a collapse. Measured by number of households rather than number of people, it probably rose slightly. The collapse was entirely due to Allegheny County, and over half due to the city, which was for the most part due to a rapid drop in household size.

Of course, this was very different from other parts of the country that saw continued growth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I was thinking primarily of Michigan, Wisconsin and the upper reaches of Illinois and Ohio.
These are the parts of the Midwest which remind me the least of Pittsburgh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Black people also exist pretty much everywhere in the country. The question is one of degree, not absolutes. Compared to virtually every part of the country, non-Hispanic White educational attainment is lower in the core Rust Belt cities (Chicago excepted).
Just looked at the educational attainment for a bunch of Northeastern and Midwestern cities (four year degree or more, over age 25). The percentages

DC - 90%
Boston - 64%
Chicago - 57%
NYC - 54%
Baltimore - 51%
Saint Louis - 45%
Pittsburgh - 42%
Philly - 37%
Milwaukee - 36%
Cleveland - 25%
Detroit - 23%

Not exhaustive. Pittsburgh ranks above Philly, but below Saint Louis and Chicago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Compared to the Coast, yes it is. The Midwest has Republicans that are more conservative than the Republicans along the East Coast but less conservative than Republicans in the South.
As I said in the other thread I think the only reason the Pittsburgh metro is more right wing politically than the NYC or Philly metros is less nonwhites and less Jews.

Secondly, if you're comparing it to the Upper Midwest in particular, it's quite different politically. A lot of rural areas in the Upper Midwest actually lean left, or are only barely conservative. They tend to have a big communitarian tradition as well, and be very into public schools. The rural areas in the Pittsburgh region are much more similar politically to West Virginia or Eastern Kentucky, with left-wing politics dying with trade unions, and people very much into gun rights, low taxes, and keeping to themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Why not?
Because people in Pittsburgh aren't humble? As I've said before, the stereotypical local personality is someone who is very loud and blunt. There really isn't anything like "Minnesota nice" here.
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:00 PM
 
56,511 posts, read 80,824,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't know what the "real/perceived character" of these metros is. Economic fortunes change. There was once a time when manufacturing boomed and people left the South and Appalachia for cities like Detroit, Chicago and Pittsburgh. Did anybody complain then that the character of these metros wasn't "real"? You can't hate on a city for becoming more affluent and educated because people are moving there. It is what it is.
No one is "hating on" an area. My point is that even in Buffalo and Pittsburgh, the top industries have changed as well. Nashville's metro median household income is only slightly higher than that of Pittsburgh and Buffalo, with COL not being much different between those areas. New Orleans and Memphis have lower median household incomes than Pittsburgh and Buffalo. Richmond is near the Bos-Wash corridor and is a capital city. So, its median household income is going to be higher, as is its overall COL in comparison to these other cities mentioned.(Shrug)

Also, the Upper Midwest would be MN, WI and perhaps the Dakotas. If there are similarities, it will be with OH and MI areas on/near the Great Lakes.
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The Pittsburgh MSA as a whole is only down around 15% from its 1970 value.
"Only." Heh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Certainly it shrunk, but I'm not sure I'd say it was a collapse. Measured by number of households rather than number of people, it probably rose slightly.
I would call it a collapse. The metro area lost 314,000 people in a single decade. Could you imagine the panic in any C-D homer if the Census 2020 results were released showing their metro had lost 314,000 people? Heads would explode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
These are the parts of the Midwest which remind me the least of Pittsburgh.
Economically, they are similar. We're talking broad strokes here, kid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Not exhaustive. Pittsburgh ranks above Philly, but below Saint Louis and Chicago.
It's funny how people switch between city and MSA when it suits them. In most threads, we talk about metros, but I can understand not wanting to do that in this case because the metro stats for Pittsburgh are not stellar. You need to keep the conversation restricted to 55 square miles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
As I said in the other thread I think the only reason the Pittsburgh metro is more right wing politically than the NYC or Philly metros is less nonwhites and less Jews.
That's not entirely it. Philadelphia has historically had a lot of wealthy WASPs in its suburbs who were liberal on social issues. Pittsburgh did not have the same wealth and it does not have suburban Philly's wealth in 2016.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Secondly, if you're comparing it to the Upper Midwest in particular, it's quite different politically.
Pittsburgh ain't that different from Milwaukee. Both are blue cities in blue counties surrounded by red. And unlike the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia or Long Island, Republicans in these metros are more animated by cultural issues than fiscal ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Because people in Pittsburgh aren't humble? As I've said before, the stereotypical local personality is someone who is very loud and blunt. There really isn't anything like "Minnesota nice" here.
From the outside, Pittsburgh doesn't have much of a stereotypical personality. And I don't put Pittsburgh in the "elitist" category so many people put New York and Boston in. And I don't think that Pittsburgh is any more "loud and blunt" than Cleveland or Detroit. It's certainly not more "loud and blunt" than Chicago.
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,220,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
No one is "hating on" an area. My point is that even in Buffalo and Pittsburgh, the top industries have changed as well. Nashville's metro median household income is only slightly higher than that of Pittsburgh and Buffalo, with COL not being much different between those areas. New Orleans and Memphis have lower median household incomes than Pittsburgh and Buffalo. Richmond is near the Bos-Wash corridor and is a capital city. So, its median household income is going to be higher, as is its overall COL in comparison to these other cities mentioned.(Shrug)
That's not how I interpreted your statement. It sounded like you were saying that the "real" Memphis is something else but we don't really see that in the data because a bunch of people from the North moved there, which is disguising its true poverty level and lower educational attainment rates. It's almost as if we need to make a Moved From The North (MFTN) adjustment the same way we need to make COLA adjustments any time someone complains about median salary being substantially lower than some other city's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Also, the Upper Midwest would be MN, WI and perhaps the Dakotas. If there are similarities, it will be with OH and MI areas on/near the Great Lakes.
There's no official definition of the Upper Midwest, but I am talking more specifically about the industrial states.
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,881 posts, read 10,379,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I wish there was a map that shows if people say Sneakers or Gym Shoes, as the latter is pretty common in MI. I don't think people from Buffalo say Gym Shoes though.
There probably is. Saying "tennis shoes" or "gym shoes" for sneakers seems even weirder to me haha.
"Pop" is definitely a Midwestern thing though.

I've always thought there was a "Great Lakes" region but I always thought of it as mostly part of the Midwest. Clearly many don't. I never knew so many thought of Cleveland as having tangible similarities to New England before I came on city-data. I thought of Ohio as Midwestern through and through-influencing other states in the region.

Last edited by 2e1m5a; 01-21-2016 at 01:30 PM..
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:31 PM
 
56,511 posts, read 80,824,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
There probably is. Saying "tennis shoes" or "gym shoes" for sneakers seems even weirder to me haha.
"Pop" is definitely a Midwestern thing though.

I've always thought there was a "Great Lakes" region but I always thought of it as mostly part of the Midwest. Clearly many don't.
Yeah, when I would listen to the radio while going to school in MI, they would say "no gym shoes", in terms of the dress code for the club nights.

Also, I'll put it this way, I could be at the shore of a Great Lake in less than an hour. So, the Great Lakes definitely cross into 2 regions.
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,881 posts, read 10,379,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Yeah, when I would listen to the radio while going to school in MI, they would say "no gym shoes", in terms of the dress code for the club nights.

Also, I'll put it this way, I could be at the shore of a Great Lake in less than an hour. So, the Great Lakes definitely cross into 2 regions.
True, but I could also be South of the Mason-Dixon line in less than an hour.
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