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View Poll Results: Are Pittsburgh, Erie, and Buffalo Northeastern or Midwestern?
Northeastern 42 50.60%
Midwestern 10 12.05%
Mixed 31 37.35%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-21-2016, 01:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That's not how I interpreted your statement. It sounded like you were saying that the "real" Memphis is something else but we don't really see that in the data because a bunch of people from the North moved there, which is disguising its true poverty level and lower educational attainment rates. It's almost as if we need to make a Moved From The North (MFTN) adjustment the same way we need to make COLA adjustments any time someone complains about median salary being substantially lower than some other city's.



There's no official definition of the Upper Midwest, but I am talking more specifically about the industrial states.
No, the real/perceived comment was about Buffalo and Pittsburgh in terms of being viewed as strictly blue collar, but its top industries are white collar industries(health care, government, education, etc.). Here is some more educational attainment info: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...reas.html?_r=0

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 01-21-2016 at 01:57 PM..
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
No, the real/perceived comment was about Buffalo and Pittsburgh in terms of being viewed as strictly blue collar, but its top industries are white collar industries(health care, government, education, etc.).
I don't know how many educated people really think of Buffalo and Pittsburgh as "strictly" blue collar since there are virtually no industrial cities left in America. But I think people think of Buffalo, Cleveland and Detroit as being similar cities as far as their metros having an overall working-class character to them.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't know how many educated people really think of Buffalo and Pittsburgh as "strictly" blue collar since there are virtually no industrial cities left in America. But I think people think of Buffalo, Cleveland and Detroit as being similar cities as far as their metros having an overall working-class character to them.
This is another reason why I said real/perceived view of these areas. I know that Detroit has some very affluent suburbs and Buffalo has some pretty nice ones as well. This is a cool map that gives you an idea of where the money and high educational attainment is within each metro: Washington: A world apart | The Washington Post

So, where would these Buffalo area communities fit in? https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9625...8i6656!6m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1728...8i6656!6m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2505...8i6656!6m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7674...8i6656!6m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7158...8i6656!6m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7678...8i6656!6m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9022...8i6656!6m1!1e1

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9629...7i13312!8i6656

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 01-21-2016 at 02:29 PM..
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:02 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Instead of either/or, since there's no sharp cultural boundary, why not think of it as a gradual contrast? Compared to a New England city of similar size (say, Lowell, New Bedford) there's a different, layout, accent, ethnic background, industrial history breakdown in Erie that gives it a lot more in common with cities further west. Eastern upstate New York has some similarities to both; in particular the Albany area is actually slightly older than western Massachusetts and looks a bit more "old urban". Compared to a medium sized city in western Illinois or Iowa, Erie has some in common has a lot of differences.

It's hard to comment about culture unless you've lived in those cities
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:03 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
This is another reason why I said real/perceived view of these areas. I know that Detroit has some very affluent suburbs and Buffalo has some pretty nice ones as well. This is a cool map that gives you an idea of where the money and high educational attainment is within each metro: Washington: A world apart | The Washington Post
On average Detroit and especially Buffalo have fewer affluent suburbs than the larger Northeastern cities. You can find affluent suburbs in most cities, but some have them more than others.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I'm not talking about city propers. I'm talking about metro areas. And I don't know of anyone who thinks of Pittsburgh as a latte liberal haven.
Maybe we're talking about different people. But I tend to think that the "latte liberal" stereotype is of educated urbanites, not educated suburbanites. After all, someone with a college degree in the suburbs could be a 55 year old Trump supporter with a BA in Accounting. There obviously are some yuppie enclaves even in the suburbs. But it's mainly a City thing these days, nationwide, and especially in Pittsburgh.

I will say one of the odd things upon moving here however is how many older lower-income white people have service jobs - like cleaning in hotels and working at convenience stores. That was something I just didn't see growing up, and it was jarring to notice it here. I'm not sure I'd say that was distinctly "Midwestern" however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
The map shows that to be an obvious exception to the rule. Overwhelmingly, The Northeast and Midwest are divided among Soda or Pop. And as it pertains to this discussion, Pittsburgh/Buffalo/Erie clearly have some linguistic influence from The Midwest.
I'm not really sure how the soda/pop thing happened. My guess is it was called sodapop originally by everyone, and then local terms drifted depending upon what the media chose to identify it as.

If Pop country = Midwest, than all of the West besides CA, NV, AZ, and NM are in the Midwest. West Virginia as well. Seems sort of silly IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Pittsburgh ain't that different from Milwaukee. Both are blue cities in blue counties surrounded by red. And unlike the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia or Long Island, Republicans in these metros are more animated by cultural issues than fiscal ones.
My understanding of the Milwaukee suburbs is they are pretty different from Pittsburgh. First, there is much more hostility towards the core city than in the Pittsburgh metro (driven by racism mostly, since Milwaukee became majority-minority, and Pittsburgh didn't). Secondly, the Milwaukee suburbs are actually more conservative than the rural areas out further, which tend to be moderately conservative to liberal. Indeed, Milwaukee's suburbs are the strongest area for the state Republican party. In contrast, although Pittsburgh's suburban (really exurban) counties are swinging rightward, they're not incredibly right wing.

Also, it bears mentioning, as I did in the other thread, that Pittsburgh suburbanites do not vote on social issues, they vote based on economic class. With the exception of a few upper-income burbs which are walkable, there is almost a direct association with how wealthy a suburb is here and how Republican it votes. I never hear local right wingers bring up abortion or SSM. Gun control maybe if they live really far out in the sticks. They like to complain about high taxes, unions, the "corrupt Democratic machine" that sort of thing. Indeed, a lot of the shift to the right in the outer counties is not so much because the people living there have become more conservative, but the type of people living there have changed. The old small cities are slowly dying due to declining population, and being replaced with exurban sprawl, which is then settled by people fleeing Allegheny County for lower taxes.

If you go to a real working-class white enclave - a place like Tarentum, Leetsdale, or Dormont - most people do still vote Democratic. It might be only around 50%-60%, but it's still not Republican.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
From the outside, Pittsburgh doesn't have much of a stereotypical personality. And I don't put Pittsburgh in the "elitist" category so many people put New York and Boston in. And I don't think that Pittsburgh is any more "loud and blunt" than Cleveland or Detroit. It's certainly not more "loud and blunt" than Chicago.
Is the opposite of elitist humble? I tend to think of humble as meaning people who avoid confrontation to the point of being passive aggressive. I haven't known too many people even in the Northeast Corridor who actually brag about their accomplishments. Then again, maybe it's because I grew up in New England, where it was important to have a "proper reserve."
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
On average Detroit and especially Buffalo have fewer affluent suburbs than the larger Northeastern cities. You can find affluent suburbs in most cities, but some have them more than others.
Sure, but many may not realize that both areas have more of these suburbs than they may realize, given their reputations for being blue collar areas.

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 01-21-2016 at 02:29 PM..
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Maybe we're talking about different people. But I tend to think that the "latte liberal" stereotype is of educated urbanites, not educated suburbanites. After all, someone with a college degree in the suburbs could be a 55 year old Trump supporter with a BA in Accounting. There obviously are some yuppie enclaves even in the suburbs. But it's mainly a City thing these days, nationwide, and especially in Pittsburgh.
I don't think it's mainly a city thing. I think it's more pronounced in cities because liberal lattes nestle together in urban enclaves but there are numerically more in the suburbs. These kids with degrees from Swarthmore, NYU, Penn, Georgetown and Princeton moving into hip urban enclaves are coming from somewhere and that somewhere is not West Philly. A lot of them are coming from liberal enclaves in the North Chicago suburbs, the Main Line, Cherry Hill, Potomac, etc. These are your Volvo/Subaru drivers with the Obama yard signs.

There aren't that many metros with an abundance of latte liberals anyway. We're talking mostly about the Coasts, Chicago and a few other pockets here or there (Madison, Boulder, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I will say one of the odd things upon moving here however is how many older lower-income white people have service jobs - like cleaning in hotels and working at convenience stores. That was something I just didn't see growing up, and it was jarring to notice it here. I'm not sure I'd say that was distinctly "Midwestern" however.
Working class white people is not distinctly Midwestern. That's just one feature of it. The others I mentioned were a more conservative brand of Republican than what's found on the East Coast as well a blue-collar, heavy industry tradition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Is the opposite of elitist humble? I tend to think of humble as meaning people who avoid confrontation to the point of being passive aggressive. I haven't known too many people even in the Northeast Corridor who actually brag about their accomplishments. Then again, maybe it's because I grew up in New England, where it was important to have a "proper reserve."
I would say so.

One thing a lot of posters talk about in the New York forum is how much more humble and down to earth Midwesterners are. I'm not really sure what they mean by that, but okay. But I could see New Yorkers being more on the cocky side, "hot shot" side. I'd say Philly is a little less hot shot and more brash.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Yakima WA
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Whenever I hear someone from Buffalo talking I always incorrectly guess they are from somewhere in the Midwest. Their accent is a lot closer to the Midwestern Great Lakes cities than the Northeast.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Sure, but many may not realize that both areas have more of these suburbs than they may realize, given their reputations for being blue collar areas.
Most educated people know that Detroit has affluent suburbs. They don't have as many affluent suburbs as other places though and thus get placed in the "blue collar" category.

If we're talking about SWPLness, I would put Cleveland, Detroit and Pittsburgh all in the same bucket. I would call these cities working-class or "prole" even if there are some affluent areas of the metro (which most cities have).

Chicago and Philadelphia would be the next level up. They are historically working-class cities but also have some of the largest concentrations of wealth in the country in their suburbs. They lean more working class than the two cities in the next category.

New York and Boston are a level up from Chicago and Philly. More wealth, more prestige, more liberal. There's still a sizable White working class, however, which still sets the tone for much of the culture in the region.

DC and SF are the ultimate SWPL cities, imo. Nearly impossible to find working-class Whites without venturing to the distant suburbs and exurbs. Voting for anyone but Obama in the 2008 primary is a sin. You have to actively look for pockets of concentrated conservatism, and to my knowledge, there are virtually none there.
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