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View Poll Results: Are Pittsburgh, Erie, and Buffalo Northeastern or Midwestern?
Northeastern 42 50.60%
Midwestern 10 12.05%
Mixed 31 37.35%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-22-2016, 08:19 PM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
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If the Midwest, South and West can have smaller subregions within them, then so can the Northeast. Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Rochester are part of the interior Northeast, which is a subregion of the Northeast. Saying that western New York and western Pennsylvania aren't part of the Northeast because their culture is different from the "BosWash" cities is like saying that Utah and Wyoming aren't part of the West because their culture is different from California. If a city is located in one of the 13 original colonies and north of the Mason-Dixon Line, then it's in the Northeast, period, and no amount of rationalization or cherry-picking traits changes this. "Pop versus soda" is a poor barometer because they say "soda" in St. Louis and Milwaukee. Political climate is a poor barometer because Minnesota is very liberal. Population growth is a poor barometer because there are six metropolitan areas in New England that are losing population. Germanic heritage is a poor barometer because the Pennsylvania Dutch came from Germany. The Proclamation Line of 1763 is a poor barometer because parts of Vermont and the Adirondack Mountains fell beyond it too. People who put Pittsburgh, Buffalo or Rochester in the Midwest can't see the forest for the trees. They're the three largest metropolitan areas in the interior Northeast.
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Old 01-22-2016, 09:14 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 2,751,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
It could also be argued that Buffalo lacks the Jewish aspect the Coastal cities have (though Cleveland and Detroit have it).
Cleveland has the second largest Jewish population in the Midwest and third largest on the Great Lakes. Virtually all live on the east side of the metro.

Quote:
My people are huddled in masses on the right bank of the Cuyahoga, whereas across the river, they have enormous festivals of ethnic pride that, I sometimes joke to my friends, could be called “the people who tried to kill my people celebrations.” Don’t get me wrong; I am joking. I love Dyngus Day But revivals of Eastern European ethnic pride are always somewhat emotionally charged for me. Say “east/west” to me and I think: Jews.

The odd thing is, in my experience, when people talk Cleveland’s divide, Jews are rarely mentioned. At least not in front of me. Do blacks and the white working class crowd Jews out? Or are Jews what everyone thinks but no one states? At any rate, there is no rational explanation for this Balkanization, so irrational ones are all we have, and we can be illogical both in jest and in seriousness. At least that’s my attitude. I am not disparaging or outraged about this issue. Ever the outsider, I am simply explaining.
Sometimes I trip across something that messes with the too-easy categories: a star of David on the entryway to an antique store in Tremont, for example. But for the most part, the demographic lopsidedness is simply consistent: 38 houses of worship versus one, five schools versus zero.


There are only a handful of other cities of any population in the United States that can claim such a large percentage of Jews, and yet the Cleveland area’s Jewish population is densely congregated into one part of town, in the suburbs most Jews moved to when they left the city proper. But that move was decades ago. We are a generation removed, but we have not scattered.


Next Year in Tremont?: Cleveland’s Jews and the East/West Divide | Belt Magazine | Dispatches From The Rust Belt
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Old 01-22-2016, 11:38 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,996 posts, read 102,581,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi View Post
If the Midwest, South and West can have smaller subregions within them, then so can the Northeast. Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Rochester are part of the interior Northeast, which is a subregion of the Northeast. Saying that western New York and western Pennsylvania aren't part of the Northeast because their culture is different from the "BosWash" cities is like saying that Utah and Wyoming aren't part of the West because their culture is different from California. If a city is located in one of the 13 original colonies and north of the Mason-Dixon Line, then it's in the Northeast, period, and no amount of rationalization or cherry-picking traits changes this. "Pop versus soda" is a poor barometer because they say "soda" in St. Louis and Milwaukee. Political climate is a poor barometer because Minnesota is very liberal. Population growth is a poor barometer because there are six metropolitan areas in New England that are losing population. Germanic heritage is a poor barometer because the Pennsylvania Dutch came from Germany. The Proclamation Line of 1763 is a poor barometer because parts of Vermont and the Adirondack Mountains fell beyond it too. People who put Pittsburgh, Buffalo or Rochester in the Midwest can't see the forest for the trees. They're the three largest metropolitan areas in the interior Northeast.
I have to say, for once I agree with you, Craziaskowboi!
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
So, it has some things in common with Northeastern areas then.....Hartford and Springfield MA have a higher Polish percentage. Metros in Northeastern PA(Allentown and Scranton) have about the same German percentage, give or take, within their metros. Are Allentown and Scranton not Northeastern cities/areas? What about Hartford and Springfield? Its Irish percentage is in line with Bridgeport CT and higher than Baltimore's. What about Bridgeport and Baltimore?

Do all of these Bos-Wash cities have a large percentage of attached housing?
You have to look at the totality of the characteristics, not one or two. Otherwise, we'll keep getting responses like "Los Angeles is west of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed, is that the Midwest too?" Or "They say soda in Wisconsin, is that the East Coast?" It's the same way we wouldn't say someone has Ebola just because they're running a high fever. Or that someone has Lupus because they're experiencing joint pain. A diagnosis is made on the basis of the presence or absence of several symptoms, not one. Likewise, we can categorize cities on the presence or absence of several characteristics, not one. So let's do a rundown.

Cities west of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed: Oklahoma City, Seattle, Houston, Portland, Buffalo, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc.

Cities where German is largest European ancestry: Norfolk, Austin, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Cleveland, Baltimore, Washington, etc.

Cities where the say "pop": Chicago, Minneapolis, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Cleveland, etc.

Core Rust Belt Cities: Chicago, Rochester, Syracuse, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc.

Cities with strong Polish influence: Scranton, New Haven, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, etc.

Cities with Deep Population Declines After 1970: Pittsburgh, Rochester, Buffalo, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc.

So while you can find metros anywhere that meet *some* of these criteria, there are only a few that meet all of them.

And you still didn't answer my question: Is Buffalo more similar to Cleveland or NYC?

Last edited by BajanYankee; 01-23-2016 at 07:22 AM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi View Post
If the Midwest, South and West can have smaller subregions within them, then so can the Northeast. Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Rochester are part of the interior Northeast, which is a subregion of the Northeast. Saying that western New York and western Pennsylvania aren't part of the Northeast because their culture is different from the "BosWash" cities is like saying that Utah and Wyoming aren't part of the West because their culture is different from California. If a city is located in one of the 13 original colonies and north of the Mason-Dixon Line, then it's in the Northeast, period, and no amount of rationalization or cherry-picking traits changes this. "Pop versus soda" is a poor barometer because they say "soda" in St. Louis and Milwaukee. Political climate is a poor barometer because Minnesota is very liberal. Population growth is a poor barometer because there are six metropolitan areas in New England that are losing population. Germanic heritage is a poor barometer because the Pennsylvania Dutch came from Germany. The Proclamation Line of 1763 is a poor barometer because parts of Vermont and the Adirondack Mountains fell beyond it too. People who put Pittsburgh, Buffalo or Rochester in the Midwest can't see the forest for the trees. They're the three largest metropolitan areas in the interior Northeast.
See my response to ckhthankgod. Only a handful of cities meet the criteria I've laid out. I wouldn't call it "cherrypicking" if Buffalo meets all of the same criteria that Detroit meets. I would call it cherrypicking though if you choose one criterion (i.e., West of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed) in an effort to say that all of the criteria taken together don't mean anything. In other words, if a city is west of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed and it says "pop" and it suffered large population declines after 1970 and German is its largest European ancestry and it has a strong Eastern European influence it might just could be Midwestern.

The lazy analysis is to say "It's in New York State/Pennsylvania, therefore it's Northeastern." We could say that. But from now on, the "Is DC a Northeastern City" threads shouldn't last more than 2 posts since it is clearly a part of the Southern United States. If we ignore the Mason-Dixon Line, or in this case the NY-OH-PA borders, we may find out that labels like "South," "Northeast" and "Midwest" don't really mean that much in terms of culture and logical metro groupings.

The one thing about Baltimore and DC is that they are sufficiently different from their closest Southern neighbors (namely Richmond and Norfolk) to make a strong argument for not being part of the cultural South. It's very liberal, they don't say "y'all" there, don't really have Southern accents (outside of the AA population anyway), they are faster-paced than the cities to their South, etc. There are still striking differences between them and NYC/Philly but at least the argument could be made that they are more different from the cities to the South than the cities to the Northeast.

With Buffalo and Cleveland, I don't see enough difference between them and their closest Midwestern neighbors (which they are closer to anyway).
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Here's an interesting take from Discover Magazine.

Quote:
As a matter of geography Pittsburgh and Buffalo are Northeastern cities, but as a matter of cultural sensibility they’re classic Rustbelt metropolises. They are technically outside the Midwest, but they are most definitely part of the Great Lakes Region. Syracuse may be a liminal in terms of identity, but I don’t think Brooks is totally off base assuming that its sensibility is more with the Midwest than the East.

Local knowledge matters. Most Americans are conscious of the fact that though Florida is in the South, in reality it is the northern part of Florida which is of the South. Fewer Americans are aware of the fact that though southern Illinois is in the Midwest its cultural sensibilities reflect the South more than the North.
Soda vs. Pop & the boundaries of the Midwest - Gene Expression

So maybe the Midwest really begins in Western NY/PA just as the "true" South begins somewhere north of Orlando in the state of Florida.
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:32 AM
 
56,595 posts, read 80,890,793 times
Reputation: 12505
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
You have to look at the totality of the characteristics, not one or two. Otherwise, we'll keep getting responses like "Los Angeles is west of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed, is that the Midwest too?" Or "They say soda in Wisconsin, is that the East Coast?" It's the same way we wouldn't say someone has Ebola just because they're running a high fever. Or that someone has Lupus because they're experiencing joint pain. A diagnosis is made on the basis of the presence or absence of several symptoms, not one. Likewise, we can categorize cities on the presence or absence of several characteristics, not one. So let's do a rundown.

Cities west of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed: Oklahoma City, Seattle, Houston, Portland, Buffalo, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, etc.

Cities where German is largest European ancestry: Norfolk, Austin, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Cleveland, Baltimore, Washington, etc.

Cities where the say "pop": Chicago, Minneapolis, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Cleveland, etc.

Core Rust Belt Cities: Chicago, Rochester, Syracuse, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, etc.

Cities with strong Polish influence: Scranton, New Haven, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, etc.

Cities with Deep Population Declines After 1970: Pittsburgh, Rochester, Buffalo, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc.

So while you can find metros anywhere that meet *some* of these criteria, there are only a few that meet all of them.

And you still didn't answer my question: Is Buffalo more similar to Cleveland or NYC?
No, this doesn't make Buffalo Midwestern based upon selective criteria even if it is more similar to Cleveland, because Cleveland can just as easily be viewed as Northeastern. So, the initial analogy doesn't make sense. You can find other Northeastern areas that actually fit much, if not all of that criteria, but are viewed as Northeastern.

I think Craziaskowboi's point is that there is going to be a bunch of crossover given your criteria, which is subjective. We all can and have given things showing whatever we want to. So, saying the Interior Northeast makes sense given the geography and the crossover across and variation within regions.

Hartford has a high Polish percentage as well and is solidly within the Bos-Wash corridor. Rochester has never lost population in a census either and has more of a white collar character.

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 01-23-2016 at 07:44 AM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:41 AM
 
56,595 posts, read 80,890,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Here's an interesting take from Discover Magazine.



Soda vs. Pop & the boundaries of the Midwest - Gene Expression

So maybe the Midwest really begins in Western NY/PA just as the "true" South begins somewhere north of Orlando in the state of Florida.
Again, "Rust Belt" and Midwestern aren't synonyms. That is where the problem lies and it is the same with the Great Lakes.
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
No, this doesn't make Buffalo Midwestern based upon selective criteria even if it is more similar to Cleveland, because Cleveland can just as easily be viewed as Northeastern. So, the initial analogy doesn't make sense. You can find other Northeastern areas that actually fit much, if not all of that criteria, but are viewed as Northeastern.

I think Craziaskowboi's point is that there is going to be a bunch of crossover given your criteria, which is subjective. So, saying the Interior Northeast makes sense given the geography and the crossover across and variation within regions.
My criteria are not "selective." These are things most Upper Midwest cities have in common. Geography, history of heavy industry, demography, history, etc. You cannot find many Northeastern metros that say "pop" and lie west of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed and suffered deep population losses after 1970. It's the combination of characteristics that matter here, not the "cherrypicking" of one or two in an attempt to invalidate the general rule.

Nor are my criteria subjective. A subjective criterion would be something like "Does it have a Northeastern vibe?" These are completely objective criteria.

And if Cleveland can be viewed as Northeastern, then Detroit could too because most people agree those are very similar cities.
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Again, "Rust Belt" and Midwestern aren't synonyms. That is where the problem lies and it is the same with the Great Lakes.
I don't think he's saying that the two are synonymous. It's more nuanced than that. The Rust Belt is primarily Midwestern. That is one characteristic that Pittsburgh or Buffalo have in common with Upper Midwestern cities. But there are also linguistic similarities and, of course, geographic proximity. So all in all, Buffalo is more quintessentially Midwestern. That's what he's saying.
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