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View Poll Results: Are Pittsburgh, Erie, and Buffalo Northeastern or Midwestern?
Northeastern 42 50.60%
Midwestern 10 12.05%
Mixed 31 37.35%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-23-2016, 07:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
My criteria are not "selective." These are things most Upper Midwest cities have in common. Geography, history of heavy industry, demography, history, etc. You cannot find many Northeastern metros that say "pop" and lie west of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed and suffered deep population losses after 1970. It's the combination of characteristics that matter here, not the "cherrypicking" of one or two in an attempt to invalidate the general rule.

Nor are my criteria subjective. A subjective criterion would be something like "Does it have a Northeastern vibe?" These are completely objective criteria.

And if Cleveland can be viewed as Northeastern, then Detroit could too because most people agree those are very similar cities.
Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago aren't even Upper Midwestern though. Outside of the watershed, which is subjective, you might as well add Scranton-Wilkes Barre and Springfield MA.

If geography is included, then Buffalo and Pittsburgh are in Northeastern states.

Detroit does have some characteristics to Northeastern areas and some of the metro area towns/cities like Farmington/Farmington Hills, Romulus, Wayne, Canton and Livonia have ties to Upstate NY. It is a bit more sprawled and car dependent than Buffalo, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, as all three have a smaller built out footprint and legitimate rail public transportation to some degree.

Detroit is 139 square miles, Cleveland is 78 sq miles, Pittsburgh is 55 sq miles and Buffalo is 40 square miles.

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 01-23-2016 at 08:12 AM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago aren't even Upper Midwestern though. Outside of the watershed, which is subjective, you might as well add Scranton-Wilkes Barre and Springfield MA.
Wiki says they are all Upper Midwest. I didn't think there was some official designation anyway.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...permidwest.JPG

And I didn't say "outside" of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed. I said "entirely to the west of it." Because, ya know, westerness should be a criterion of "Midwesterness." Just like southerness should be a criterion of being a part of the South. If there's an argument that DC and Baltimore are way too far north to be Southern, then there's equally an argument to be made that Buffalo and Pittsburgh are too far west to be "Eastern," particularly in light of the fact that they are significantly closer to Midwestern cities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
If geography is included, then Buffalo and Pittsburgh are in Northeastern states.
And if geography is included, Wilmington, Delaware is in a Southern state just like Birmingham, Biloxi, Tupelo and Little Rock. So what? Why are state lines completely arbitrary in some cases (Wilmington, Baltimore, DC) but they are final arbiters in others (Buffalo, Detroit)? That question needs to be answered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Detroit does have some characteristics to Northeastern areas and some of the metro area towns/cities like Farmington/Farmington Hills, Romulus, Wayne, Canton and Livonia have ties to Upstate NY. It is a bit more sprawled and car dependent than Buffalo, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, as all three have a smaller built out footprint and legitimate rail public transportation to some degree.
There's not much difference among Buffalo, Cleveland and Detroit in terms of built environment and transit share. Buffalo is significantly closer to Detroit on both counts than it is to Boston, DC or Philadelphia. So I wouldn't rely on transit to make a "Northeasterness" argument.
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:05 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Here's an interesting take from Discover Magazine.



Soda vs. Pop & the boundaries of the Midwest - Gene Expression

So maybe the Midwest really begins in Western NY/PA just as the "true" South begins somewhere north of Orlando in the state of Florida.
Pittsburgh is 131 miles from Presque Isle State Park, on Lake Erie. (That's what I had to put in to calculate it. Google wouldn't calculate from Pittsburgh to L. Erie.) The influence of L. Erie on Pittsburgh is minimal. Oh, some people did go up there to enjoy the lake (not my family) but that's about it. Pittsburgh lies outside the L. Erie snowbelt. Pittsburgh is not a Great Lakes city. And the link (from a section of Discover called Friday Fluff, which it definely is) is about this soda/pop thing again. Give it a rest!
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:10 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't think he's saying that the two are synonymous. It's more nuanced than that. The Rust Belt is primarily Midwestern. That is one characteristic that Pittsburgh or Buffalo have in common with Upper Midwestern cities. But there are also linguistic similarities and, of course, geographic proximity. So all in all, Buffalo is more quintessentially Midwestern. That's what he's saying.
There is absolutely no linguistic similarity between Pittsburgh and the upper midwest. Pittsburgh has been referred to as a "linguistic Galapagos Islands", in other words, isolated.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Tp...sburgh&f=false

Think Mr. Rogers, not Garrison Keillor.
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
There is absolutely no linguistic similarity between Pittsburgh and the upper midwest. Pittsburgh has been referred to as a "linguistic Galapagos Islands", in other words, isolated.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Tp...sburgh&f=false

Think Mr. Rogers, not Garrison Keillor.
I should have said dialetical rather than linguistic. Of course, "pop" is not the only thing Pittsburgh has in common with the Midwest, and "pop" is not exclusive to the Midwest. Pittsburgh is geographically closer to large Midwestern metros than any major Northeastern metro and also shares an economic links as well as an economic history with Midwestern metros.
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Pittsburgh is 131 miles from Presque Isle State Park, on Lake Erie. (That's what I had to put in to calculate it. Google wouldn't calculate from Pittsburgh to L. Erie.) The influence of L. Erie on Pittsburgh is minimal. Oh, some people did go up there to enjoy the lake (not my family) but that's about it. Pittsburgh lies outside the L. Erie snowbelt. Pittsburgh is not a Great Lakes city. And the link (from a section of Discover called Friday Fluff, which it definely is) is about this soda/pop thing again. Give it a rest!
I would agree that Pittsburgh is not a Great Lakes city though it is in the same general neighborhood with Cleveland.

The section is not called "Friday Fluff" btw. You misread that. The previous article was called "Friday Fluff," not that section of Discover Magazine.
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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So I'm willing to make this concession.

State lines are the end-all, be-all. Therefore, Buffalo and Pittsburgh are "Eastern" along with New York, Boston and Philadelphia. Wilmington, Baltimore and Washington, DC are Southern along with Jacksonville, Atlanta and New Orleans. If state lines are controlling, then this is the only possible outcome.
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:19 AM
 
56,533 posts, read 80,824,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Wiki says they are all Upper Midwest. I didn't think there was some official designation anyway.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...permidwest.JPG

And I didn't say "outside" of the Chesapeake Bay Watershed. I said "entirely to the west of it." Because, ya know, westerness should be a criterion of "Midwesterness." Just like southerness should be a criterion of being a part of the South. If there's an argument that DC and Baltimore are way too far north to be Southern, then there's equally an argument to be made that Buffalo and Pittsburgh are too far west to be "Eastern," particularly in light of the fact that they are significantly closer to Midwestern cities.



And if geography is included, Wilmington, Delaware is in a Southern state just like Birmingham, Biloxi, Tupelo and Little Rock. So what? Why are state lines completely arbitrary in some cases (Wilmington, Baltimore, DC) but they are final arbiters in others (Buffalo, Detroit)? That question needs to be answered.



There's not much difference among Buffalo, Cleveland and Detroit in terms of built environment and transit share. Buffalo is significantly closer to Detroit on both counts than it is to Boston, DC or Philadelphia. So I wouldn't rely on transit to make a "Northeasterness" argument.
How can Ohio and Michigan be Upper Midwest when there are portions of the region further north?

The problem is that Buffalo and Pittsburgh are in states than are definitely Northeastern though. Maryland is a border state and historically has been. Same for Delaware.

Look at my addition in terms of city square miles and why can't public transportation be used? See how subjective this can be......Detroit is a much more sprawled out city than the others, in comparison.
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,252 posts, read 26,220,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
How can Ohio and Michigan be Upper Midwest when there are portions of the region further north?
How can Birmingham be in the Deep South if there are parts of the South that are *farther* South? I didn't realize that the Upper Midwest was only the places that border Canada. My understanding was that it included areas along the Great Lakes and in particular areas that experienced Yankee settlement (as opposed to the Lower Midwest, which was settled by Midlanders and Southerners).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
The problem is that Buffalo and Pittsburgh are in states than are definitely Northeastern though. Maryland is a border state and historically has been. Same for Delaware.
That's a weak distinction. Maryland was a Southern state. Definitely not in the Northeast at all. So if we can ignore state lines in the case of DC and Baltimore, we can ignore state lines here. We also ignore state lines in Miami's case, which is also located in a Southern state. And Northern Virginia is in Dixie but we're willing to overlook "arbitrary state lines" in that case as well.

Was Maryland Ever a Southern State?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Look at my addition in terms of city square miles and why can't public transportation be used? See how subjective this can be......Detroit is a much more sprawled out city than the others, in comparison.
I didn't say you couldn't use it. I'm saying it's a losing battle because Buffalo is MUCH more like Detroit in those regards than it is Boston. That's what I'm saying.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 01-23-2016 at 08:36 AM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:15 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,987 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I should have said dialetical rather than linguistic. Of course, "pop" is not the only thing Pittsburgh has in common with the Midwest, and "pop" is not exclusive to the Midwest. Pittsburgh is geographically closer to large Midwestern metros than any major Northeastern metro and also shares an economic links as well as an economic history with Midwestern metros.
Pittsburgh to:
Cleveland-135 mi.
Columbus (if you can call it a major metro)-189 mi.
Detroit-206
Indianapolis (See Columbus)-359 mil
Chicago-460 mil
St. Louis-601 mi
Milwaukee-555
Minneapolis-873

Pittsburgh to:
DC-241
Baltimore-243
Philly-305
NYC-371
Boston-572

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I would agree that Pittsburgh is not a Great Lakes city though it is in the same general neighborhood with Cleveland.

The section is not called "Friday Fluff" btw. You misread that. The previous article was called "Friday Fluff," not that section of Discover Magazine.
Well, it was fluff, anyway with that pop/soda nonsense.
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