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View Poll Results: Are Pittsburgh, Erie, and Buffalo Northeastern or Midwestern?
Northeastern 42 50.60%
Midwestern 10 12.05%
Mixed 31 37.35%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-23-2016, 09:17 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So I'm willing to make this concession.

State lines are the end-all, be-all. Therefore, Buffalo and Pittsburgh are "Eastern" along with New York, Boston and Philadelphia. Wilmington, Baltimore and Washington, DC are Southern along with Jacksonville, Atlanta and New Orleans. If state lines are controlling, then this is the only possible outcome.
State lines are part of the equation.
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
State lines are part of the equation.
So is Alexandria, Virginia Dixie?

There are clearly states lines that *do not* matter (to most posters here anyway). The Maryland-Virginia border does not matter. The Maryland-Pennsylvania border does not matter. Miami being in a Southern state (part of which is, gasp, Deep South) does not matter. Yet when it comes to the OH-PA border, it matters. Okay.

I'm not sure why people want to be so stubborn on this issue in this particular case. Most people would agree that states can, in a cultural sense, be a part of more than one region. Houston is Southern while El Paso is not despite both being in a technically "Southern" state. Jacksonville is Southern while Miami is not despite both being in geographically Southern states. If this is the case, then the possibility of Buffalo, Erie and Pittsburgh being Midwestern is not automatically foreclosed on the basis of them being in geographically Northeastern states.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 01-23-2016 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:03 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi View Post
If the Midwest, South and West can have smaller subregions within them, then so can the Northeast. Pittsburgh, Buffalo and Rochester are part of the interior Northeast, which is a subregion of the Northeast. Saying that western New York and western Pennsylvania aren't part of the Northeast because their culture is different from the "BosWash" cities is like saying that Utah and Wyoming aren't part of the West because their culture is different from California. If a city is located in one of the 13 original colonies and north of the Mason-Dixon Line, then it's in the Northeast, period, and no amount of rationalization or cherry-picking traits changes this.
Why is a state border such a good marker? Do Cleveland and Buffalo not have many similarities?

Quote:
"Pop versus soda" is a poor barometer because they say "soda" in St. Louis and Milwaukee. Political climate is a poor barometer because Minnesota is very liberal. Population growth is a poor barometer because there are six metropolitan areas in New England that are losing population. Germanic heritage is a poor barometer because the Pennsylvania Dutch came from Germany. The Proclamation Line of 1763 is a poor barometer because parts of Vermont and the Adirondack Mountains fell beyond it too. People who put Pittsburgh, Buffalo or Rochester in the Midwest can't see the forest for the trees. They're the three largest metropolitan areas in the interior Northeast.
which six are there? If you look over trends over several decades, the general trend for smaller New England is a stagnating population. Another large difference is New England city propers haven't had a steep population decline, Springfield has only lost 12% of its population from peak, while Great Lakes cities have had population losses 35%+ many higher than 50%. That doesn't mean smaller New England cities are doing well many of them are quite poor. Most Eastern Pennsylvania cities haven't had the huge population decline of rust belt cities, while upstate New York cities have. Buffalo's large-scale industry shares more in common with other Great Lakes cities than those in the eastern "interior Northeast".

The areas you describe that outside of the Proclamation Line are rather lightly populated due to the terrain, except for the Champlain Valley. It's hard to describe, but I feel there's a general change as you go westward in landscape from the coast. The coastal Northeast and near coastal Northeast has a lot of old towns near big cities that developed independently at the same as the larger cities. Providence, for example has small industrial towns right nearby. Springfield has Holyoke nearby which has a similar industrial history, most of the other valley towns were mill towns to some extent. Not familiar with the details of the Midwest as much, but cities like Cleveland seem to have grown outward with more industry only in the city and the surrounding areas don't have as much older development. Cohesive metropiltan areas stand out less because of the background of old small cities and towns. Northeast cities feel a bit less "planned" with often scattered, towns often more compact and denser. Midwestern municipal boundaries, roads appear planned and often in straight lines. And yes, these are generalities, but I think you can notice a difference in landscape for the earlier settlement of the Northeast east of the Appalachians. Western New York feels more like a different region than the eastern part of upstate, hard to specify.

North vs South historically had distinct cultural differences; Northeast vs Midwest never really did, it's more of a gradual shift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post

I think you have a hard time pairing Buffalo with NYC or Boston over Cleveland or Detroit. Sure, Buffalo has some characteristics that are distinctly Northeastern, but it has way more in common with Midwestern cities including proximity. It happens to be in the same state as New York City while being more similar to Upper Midwestern cities.
When I think of Buffalo, I just think of it as being upstate NY; I'd first group with all of the New York State west of the Hudson Valley.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:21 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,016 posts, read 102,634,943 times
Reputation: 33082
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So is Alexandria, Virginia Dixie?

There are clearly states lines that *do not* matter (to most posters here anyway). The Maryland-Virginia border does not matter. The Maryland-Pennsylvania border does not matter. Miami being in a Southern state (part of which is, gasp, Deep South) does not matter. Yet when it comes to the OH-PA border, it matters. Okay.

I'm not sure why people want to be so stubborn on this issue in this particular case. Most people would agree that states can, in a cultural sense, be a part of more than one region. Houston is Southern while El Paso is not despite both being in a technically "Southern" state. Jacksonville is Southern while Miami is not despite both being in geographically Southern states. If this is the case, then the possibility of Buffalo, Erie and Pittsburgh being Midwestern is not automatically foreclosed on the basis of them being in geographically Northeastern states.
The Pennsylvania-Maryland border is the Mason-Dixon line. It matters a great deal. The division between the north and the south. Maryland used to have signs on the highways on the MD/PA border "Welcome to Maryland. Please drive gently". They were playing up their southern roots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Why is a state border such a good marker? Do Cleveland and Buffalo not have many similarities?



which six are there? If you look over trends over several decades, the general trend for smaller New England is a stagnating population. Another large difference is New England city propers haven't had a steep population decline, Springfield has only lost 12% of its population from peak, while Great Lakes cities have had population losses 35%+ many higher than 50%. That doesn't mean smaller New England cities are doing well many of them are quite poor. Most Eastern Pennsylvania cities haven't had the huge population decline of rust belt cities, while upstate New York cities have. Buffalo's large-scale industry shares more in common with other Great Lakes cities than those in the eastern "interior Northeast".

The areas you describe that outside of the Proclamation Line are rather lightly populated due to the terrain, except for the Champlain Valley. It's hard to describe, but I feel there's a general change as you go westward in landscape from the coast. The coastal Northeast and near coastal Northeast has a lot of old towns near big cities that developed independently at the same as the larger cities. Providence, for example has small industrial towns right nearby. Springfield has Holyoke nearby which has a similar industrial history, most of the other valley towns were mill towns to some extent. Not familiar with the details of the Midwest as much, but cities like Cleveland seem to have grown outward with more industry only in the city and the surrounding areas don't have as much older development. Cohesive metropiltan areas stand out less because of the background of old small cities and towns. Northeast cities feel a bit less "planned" with often scattered, towns often more compact and denser. Midwestern municipal boundaries, roads appear planned and often in straight lines. And yes, these are generalities, but I think you can notice a difference in landscape for the earlier settlement of the Northeast east of the Appalachians. Western New York feels more like a different region than the eastern part of upstate, hard to specify.

North vs South historically had distinct cultural differences; Northeast vs Midwest never really did, it's more of a gradual shift.



When I think of Buffalo, I just think of it as being upstate NY; I'd first group with all of the New York State west of the Hudson Valley.
The Midwest is culturally thought of as the farm belt, even though most people there live in cities.

Thanks for giving the perspective of a New Yorker. It's like eschaton said a few days ago, that what the people who live in an area think of themselves should account for something.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
The Pennsylvania-Maryland border is the Mason-Dixon line. It matters a great deal. The division between the north and the south. Maryland used to have signs on the highways on the MD/PA border "Welcome to Maryland. Please drive gently". They were playing up their southern roots.
Nearly everyone in this forum agrees that state lines are arbitrary. It's not like jumping from one side of the Maryland-Pennsylvania border to the other is like going from Kansas to Oz. Similarly, it's not like crossing the Potomac River from Montgomery County, Maryland to Fairfax County, Virginia is like driving into "Dixie."
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:33 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post

The Midwest is culturally thought of as the farm belt, even though most people there live in cities.
For whatever, I think of old industrial cities at least as much as farm belt.

Quote:
Thanks for giving the perspective of a New Yorker. It's like eschaton said a few days ago, that what the people who live in an area think of themselves should account for something.
I haven't been all the way to Buffalo except as a child, but in my experience upstaters don't really identify much the coastal Northeast, and just thinks of itself as "upstate". The Hudson Valley including the Albany region feels like it has a bit of connection with New England across the border. Long Island often seemed more familiar with western Massachusetts than much of upstate despite being in the state. It's one of the more oddly shaped states

Going by gradual change going west, though from the coast Northeast might visit western New York and feel like it's midwestern; while those from say, Wisconsin would think it's very obviously Northeastern. In the reverse direction, there are posters from the (western part of the) Midwest* who say Northeast Ohio feels like the Northeast, which sounds absurd to me.

*As well as a few Cleveland boosters who for whatever like to think of their area as Northeast

Meant to include this link with my previous post:

New England vs. Midwest Culture

I like the geography comparisons, not sure if I agree with the conclusions

Last edited by nei; 01-23-2016 at 11:20 AM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:33 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
87,016 posts, read 102,634,943 times
Reputation: 33082
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Nearly everyone in this forum agrees that state lines are arbitrary. It's not like jumping from one side of the Maryland-Pennsylvania border to the other is like going from Kansas to Oz. Similarly, it's not like crossing the Potomac River from Montgomery County, Maryland to Fairfax County, Virginia is like driving into "Dixie."
State lines have their implications. They determine where you pay taxes, where you/your kids go to school, what laws are in effect, who represents you in congress. They're not irrelevant.

When my SIL was a kid growing up in northern Maryland, the lunch counters at the local stores were segregated. That was not the case in Pittsburgh in the same era. Virginia gets pretty southern pretty quickly outside of the DC burbs.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:38 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

Over $104,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum and additional contests are planned
 
Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 41,998,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
State lines have their implications. They determine where you pay taxes, where you/your kids go to school, what laws are in effect, who represents you in congress. They're not irrelevant.
Sure, but they're not the only factor.

Quote:
When my SIL was a kid growing up in northern Maryland, the lunch counters at the local stores were segregated. That was not the case in Pittsburgh in the same era. Virginia gets pretty southern pretty quickly outside of the DC burbs.
Sure, but that's nearly 50 years ago. A lot of the differences across the border are gone now.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
State lines have their implications. They determine where you pay taxes, where you/your kids go to school, what laws are in effect, who represents you in congress. They're not irrelevant.
What does that have to do with culture though? People living in Manhattan pay different taxes than people living in Jersey City. People living in Washington, DC pay different taxes than people living in Silver Spring. People living in Kansas City, MO pay different taxes than people living in Kansas City, KS and so on and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
When my SIL was a kid growing up in northern Maryland, the lunch counters at the local stores were segregated.
Western Maryland, which had hardly had any Black people, is really no different from Pennsylvania. Yet you insist the two are different because of a line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Virginia gets pretty southern pretty quickly outside of the DC burbs.
That's true. That's why it doesn't make much sense to say Arlington is Southern just because it's in the same state as Richmond. Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say Pittsburgh and Buffalo are "Eastern" because they are in the same with Philly and NYC, respectively.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
When I think of Buffalo, I just think of it as being upstate NY; I'd first group with all of the New York State west of the Hudson Valley.
When I think of Buffalo, I group it with other industrial cities along the Great Lakes (and Pittsburgh).

http://www.america2050.org/great_lakes.html
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