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View Poll Results: Are Pittsburgh, Erie, and Buffalo Northeastern or Midwestern?
Northeastern 42 50.60%
Midwestern 10 12.05%
Mixed 31 37.35%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-23-2016, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The coastal Northeast and near coastal Northeast has a lot of old towns near big cities that developed independently at the same as the larger cities. Providence, for example has small industrial towns right nearby. Springfield has Holyoke nearby which has a similar industrial history, most of the other valley towns were mill towns to some extent. Not familiar with the details of the Midwest as much, but cities like Cleveland seem to have grown outward with more industry only in the city and the surrounding areas don't have as much older development. Cohesive metropiltan areas stand out less because of the background of old small cities and towns. Northeast cities feel a bit less "planned" with often scattered, towns often more compact and denser. Midwestern municipal boundaries, roads appear planned and often in straight lines. And yes, these are generalities, but I think you can notice a difference in landscape for the earlier settlement of the Northeast east of the Appalachians. Western New York feels more like a different region than the eastern part of upstate, hard to specify.
Upstate NY may not count as "Northeastern" by that classification, but Pittsburgh certainly does. The metro area is littered with old mill towns which were largely built out by 1930, and in some cases much earlier.





Note there are around three dozen "Suburban" municipalities where the average housing age is older than a sizable portion of the city proper.

I don't have maps handy for the outer counties, but they probably have a lower average housing age than Allegheny County suburbs, given they are still mostly comprised of old mill towns and rural areas.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:55 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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The Corner Side Yard: The "Five Midwests" Series, Part 6: The Plains

This author made a series of articles dividing the Midwest in different regions; he included western NY in the "Lower Lakes" region.

Going back to accent, the Inland North accent with the Northern Cities Shift is a rather distinctive accent, shouldn't the fact much of upstate NY shares it with the rest of the Great Lakes count for something? I'd assume that the accent started in upstate NY? The shift happened in the 20th century, but I assume it spread the fastest in those areas already with a similar accent.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
The Corner Side Yard: The "Five Midwests" Series, Part 6: The Plains

This author made a series of articles dividing the Midwest in different regions; he included western NY in the "Lower Lakes" region.
He also included Pittsburgh.

Quote:
The term "Rust Belt" has entered the general lexicon of America. Most people seem to know what it means -- industrial; bleak; dreary; obsolete; cold. Those words could be used to describe nearly every city in the northeast quarter of the nation, and have been used to describe cities like Worcester and Springfield, MA, and Scranton and Allentown, PA. They too are "Rust Belt" in the sense that they have industrial legacies that they've worked hard to overcome. But in some ways I view them as proto-Rust Belt: they are tied a little more closely to the cities of the East Coast than the cities of the Great Lakes region.

Ther term "Rust Belt" is also applied to other cities that are reasonably close to the Lower Lakes but share little of its cultural and economic history. Cities like Columbus, Indianapolis, Louisville, Cincinnati and the Twin Cities are often brought into the Rust Belt discussion but owe their existences to very different factors.

The Lower Lakes subregion, to me, is the core of the Rust Belt. Its large cities include Buffalo; Cleveland; Pittsburgh; Milwaukee. Smaller cities include Gary; South Bend; Flint; Toledo; Akron; Youngstown. The recognized leader of them all is Chicago. Perhaps the one city that defines the region's rise and fall best is Detroit.
And that makes sense because this was indeed the industrial powerhouse of America. That's why population declines were so steep after America's deindustrialization.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:19 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Upstate NY may not count as "Northeastern" by that classification, but Pittsburgh certainly does. The metro area is littered with old mill towns which were largely built out by 1930, and in some cases much earlier.
this table appears I was wrong about upstate cities; their suburbs have relatively high % of pre-1940 construction as much as Pittsburgh and New York City, New England stands out from the rest (well not Hartford) but that's partly from annexation patterns.

America's Oldest Cities | Newgeography.com

Those old suburban houses of upstate NY might have been more bedroom suburbs than from older independent towns (such as the way Attleboro, MA was described in the "Northeast vs Midwest culture" link)

https://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/h121-04-1.pdf

Looking at table 1 on page 5, a much higher % of Northeastern pre-1920 housing stock is multifamily; a little over half is either multifamily or attached housing. Even non-city housing stock has a large portion non-detached houses. A much larger portion of old homes in the Midwest are outside of metropolitan areas.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:36 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Sure, but they're not the only factor.



Sure, but that's nearly 50 years ago. A lot of the differences across the border are gone now.
I did not say state line was the only factor; I said it was A factor. Yes, maybe even more than 50 years ago, but still there are people alive who remember this, and probably many who thought it was just fine. I was shocked when my SIL told me that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
What does that have to do with culture though? People living in Manhattan pay different taxes than people living in Jersey City. People living in Washington, DC pay different taxes than people living in Silver Spring. People living in Kansas City, MO pay different taxes than people living in Kansas City, KS and so on and so on.



Western Maryland, which had hardly had any Black people, is really no different from Pennsylvania. Yet you insist the two are different because of a line.



That's true. That's why it doesn't make much sense to say Arlington is Southern just because it's in the same state as Richmond. Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say Pittsburgh and Buffalo are "Eastern" because they are in the same with Philly and NYC, respectively.
I'm getting a little annoyed with your tone, Bajan. Elkton, MD, which is where my SIL said this happened, is 10% black, now. That's about the same as my hometown of Beaver Falls, PA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
When I think of Buffalo, I group it with other industrial cities along the Great Lakes (and Pittsburgh).

Great Lakes - America 2050
Well, that settles it.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I'm getting a little annoyed with your tone, Bajan. Elkton, MD, which is where my SIL said this happened, is 10% black, now. That's about the same as my hometown of Beaver Falls, PA.
Okay. Not sure why.

Maryland is not all one cultural unit. Southern Maryland was the South. Baltimore was the South. Areas around Cumberland, however, have never really differed from Pennsylvania. It was settled by the same settlers. So no, the Mason-Dixon Line is not some magical line where culture, linguistics, settlement patterns, etc. all change.

And as nei said, state lines really have nothing to do with where most people believe the South begins in 2016. So if the "South" is not restricted by state borders, then there's no reason why the Midwest/Northeast should be either.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 01-23-2016 at 12:09 PM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:00 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
II'm getting a little annoyed with your tone, Bajan. Elkton, MD, which is where my SIL said this happened, is 10% black, now. That's about the same as my hometown of Beaver Falls, PA.
Elkton, MD is not in Western Maryland (which was the boldest post you're responding to mentioned).
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
When I think of Buffalo, I group it with other industrial cities along the Great Lakes (and Pittsburgh).

Great Lakes - America 2050
Which covers some Northeastern and Midwestern cities/areas. Is Watertown NY Midwestern then? That map seems to leave out Lake Ontario areas and goes way too far into the Midwest. Indianapolis and Columbus are not Great Lakes cities/areas.
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Which covers some Northeastern and Midwestern cities/areas. Is Watertown NY Midwestern then? That map seems to leave out Lake Ontario areas and goes way too far into the Midwest. Indianapolis and Columbus are not Great Lakes cities/areas.
Where do you see Watertown, NY in the America 2050 map?

Do you have anything to say at all beyond "There are Germans in Nevada. Is that Midwestern too? Huh? Huh? Huh?"

My point is that if we ignore state lines, which most would say are arbitrary, then Buffalo would be grouped with Cleveland and Detroit before it would be grouped with Boston and Philadelphia. "Northeast," "South" and "Midwest" are just labels that don't necessarily have any meaning. Yet we cleave to (or resist) some more than others because of the positive or negative attributes associated with these regions.
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:22 PM
 
56,766 posts, read 81,102,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
this table appears I was wrong about upstate cities; their suburbs have relatively high % of pre-1940 construction as much as Pittsburgh and New York City, New England stands out from the rest (well not Hartford) but that's partly from annexation patterns.

America's Oldest Cities | Newgeography.com

Those old suburban houses of upstate NY might have been more bedroom suburbs than from older independent towns (such as the way Attleboro, MA was described in the "Northeast vs Midwest culture" link)

https://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/h121-04-1.pdf

Looking at table 1 on page 5, a much higher % of Northeastern pre-1920 housing stock is multifamily; a little over half is either multifamily or attached housing. Even non-city housing stock has a large portion non-detached houses. A much larger portion of old homes in the Midwest are outside of metropolitan areas.
That is not surprising about Upstate NY cities, given the early development of those areas around the 1820's, as the Erie Canal opened in 1825. So, given that important route in terms of American economic growth, those areas were going to be developed quite early after settlement. This why I mentioned the aspect of settlement patterns.

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 01-23-2016 at 12:38 PM..
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