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View Poll Results: Are Pittsburgh, Erie, and Buffalo Northeastern or Midwestern?
Northeastern 42 50.60%
Midwestern 10 12.05%
Mixed 31 37.35%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-23-2016, 04:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
upstate is composed of separate regions, but upstate is broad term for all of the state not in the NYC metro area (sometimes the mid-Hudson valley is grouped as "downstate").
Yeah, this is what it means and WNY, CNY, the North Country/NNY, the 1000 Islands, the Finger Lakes, the Southern Tier, the Mohawk Valley, the Capital Region/District, the Adirondacks, the Champlain Valley, perhaps the Catskills, etc are examples of subregions within "Upstate" NY.
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North 42 View Post
I've never considered western New York to be "upstate", to me the two regions are different and not interchangeable. If it's people from NYC that think this, then it's just lazy and it makes it seem that the rest of NYS isn't as important as the city to have its own regions.
Think of it like Ontario. Ontario has Northern and Southern Ontario, with each split into different subregions (Northern is split into NW and NE Ontario; Southern includes SW, the Golden Horseshoe, Central and Eastern Ontario etc.)
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:19 PM
 
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Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitor sites is not allowed

Number 8 sums up the upstate vs WNY stance.

Last edited by Yac; 01-27-2016 at 07:24 AM..
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
Think of it like Ontario. Ontario has Northern and Southern Ontario, with each split into different subregions (Northern is split into NW and NE Ontario; Southern includes SW, the Golden Horseshoe, Central and Eastern Ontario etc.)
Yes and this offers an example of this: http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/n...statehome.html
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
I agree with most of what you said, but townships are incorporated. You should read my links. They are protected against forced annexation, etc. Townships in Illinois have some powers. I once worked for a health department in IL that was actually part of township government.
It varies depending upon the state. In Iowa they've essentially been abolished, and are just geographic localities - county government controls everything that cities do not. In much of the Midwest all a civil township is responsible for is roads, urban planning, and trash collection, with things like fire and police taken care of by different governmental entities. Things can even vary within a state - in Northern Illinois townships take more local governmental responsibility, while in southern Illinois they often cede almost all of their powers to the county.

Technically, the census considers all townships (and towns in New York and Wisconsin) to be unincorporated, only recognizing New England towns as being incorporated.

I've always found the Ohio practice of having paper townships to be highly odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So what are the major differences between the cities in Midwestern Great Lakes cities and the cities of the Interior Northeast?
I do not believe there are major differences between Upstate New York (particularly Buffalo and Rochester) and the Midwestern Great Lakes cities.

I do think there are major differences between Pittsburgh and the Great Lakes though.

1. The local dialects are totally different. Pittsburgh is a Midland dialect, similar to Philly and Cincinnati. The Upper Midwest are Inland North dialects. There isn't a hint of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift in Pittsburgh.

2. Pittsburgh isn't similar to the Midwest architecturally at all. It's a city with a lot of rowhouses and brick construction. Visually speaking, it looks most similar to Philadelphia and Cincinnati, and to a lesser extent Saint Louis. In contrast, the Upper Midwest cities are mostly dominated by detached frame single-family houses, often set back at least a fair amount from the street. The cities tend to be planned differently from Pittsburgh too - more regularly gridded, with much wider roads. I haven't really seen too many houses in alleys in any of them.

3. Pittsburgh was a river city which peaked early. Major population growth was pretty much done in Allegheny County by 1910. Growth in the teens and 20s was pretty minor in comparison (around 15% each decade). In contrast, the Upper Midwest cities all continued to grow at a very impressive clip at least through the Great Depression. This early end to massive population growth is part of the reason that Pittsburgh never got a large black population in the Great Migration, along with missing out on the huge influx of Appalachian "hillbillies" which shaped working-class white culture in much of the Midwest in the early 20th century. Local population growth was enough to deal with employment demand, so there was no longer any reason for outsiders to move there.

4. Politically speaking, the regions are significantly different, in that Southwestern Pennsylvania as a whole is a lot more conservative than the Upper Midwest. The political tilt of the Upper Midwest may have been in some ways influenced by their Yankee forebears. Just as New England tends to be left leaning in the modern day, areas around the Great Lakes settled by Yankees tend to be either slightly Democratic or only moderately Republican. For example, in 2012 there were only 18 counties in MI, WI, and MN where Romney won over 60% of the vote, while Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois were full of em. In Southwestern Pennsylvania, like all of the Midland states (including both New Jersey and the Lower Midwest) whites just tend to be a bit more conservative - albeit not as conservative as the South. It's a transitional area.

You'll notice in several places I said that Pittsburgh has a lot of similarities with the Lower Midwest - particularly Cincinnati and Saint Louis. A lot of these similarities go back to the earliest period of settlement. Cincinnati and Saint Louis were the two oldest cities in the Midwest - older than Chicago - cities that peaked quite early and were later surpassed by the Upper Midwest. The settlers who founded those cities came down the Ohio from the Pittsburgh area. All three cities were heavily shaped by large German immigration as well. They have culturally diverged in more recent years because Saint Louis and Cincinnati felt the effects of the Great Migration far more than the U.S. however.

Regardless, once again, U.S. cultural families tended to spread east to west. Upstate New York is both like New England and the Upper Midwest. Pittsburgh is both like the Mid-Atlantic (in the old sense, not the modern DC area sense) and the Lower Midwest. Hence the term "culturally Midwestern" is pretty much bunk, because different cities within the Midwest share more commonalities with parts of the Northeast (even all the way to the East Coast) than they do with cities on the other side of the Midwest.
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Windsor Ontario/Colchester Ontario
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^^^

Detroit was founded in 1701, well before both Saint Louis and Cincinnati.
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Old 01-23-2016, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North 42 View Post
^^^

Detroit was founded in 1701, well before both Saint Louis and Cincinnati.
Detroit was a fur trading post during the 18th century. It was smaller than Saint Louis and Cincinnati throughout the 19th century. It only surpassed Cincinnati in 1910, and Saint Louis in 1920.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:30 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
1. The local dialects are totally different. Pittsburgh is a Midland dialect, similar to Philly and Cincinnati. The Upper Midwest are Inland North dialects. There isn't a hint of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift in Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh's dialect is unique and nothing like Philadelphia's.

Quote:
The political tilt of the Upper Midwest may have been in some ways influenced by their Yankee forebears. Just as New England tends to be left leaning in the modern day, areas around the Great Lakes settled by Yankees tend to be either slightly Democratic or only moderately Republican. For example, in 2012 there were only 18 counties in MI, WI, and MN where Romney won over 60% of the vote,
Wisconsin was settled in large part by Germans from Germany. Minnesota was settled by Scandinavians and Germans from Scandinavia and Germany, not NE Yankees.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:33 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Wisconsin was settled in large part by Germans from Germany. Minnesota was settled by Scandinavians and Germans from Scandinavia and Germany, not NE Yankees.
Or both. Many of the first settlers were Americans coming from the east, usually New England or Upstate NY (or further east within the Midwest). Lansing, Michigan is named after Lansing, New York in Tompkins County. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...tural_politics

In the 1850s, two-thirds of immigrants to Wisconsin came from the eastern United States, the other one-third being foreign-born. The majority were German immigrants who settled in Wisconsin because of similarities between Germany's and Wisconsin's climate and environment.
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Old 01-24-2016, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Windsor Ontario/Colchester Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Detroit was a fur trading post during the 18th century. It was smaller than Saint Louis and Cincinnati throughout the 19th century. It only surpassed Cincinnati in 1910, and Saint Louis in 1920.
By the mid 1700s, both Detroit and Windsor were settled by the French, Detroit was trading in furs and goods from Montreal and Windsor was an agricultural settlement. It was the largest French village between Montreal and New Orleans, a village, not just a fort.
And Detroit actually had more people that St. Louis in 1810, then St. Louis started to grow bigger faster.
Cincinnati was a bit bigger in 1810 at 2,540 people

Detroit: 1650 people

St. Louis: 1600 people

Last edited by North 42; 01-24-2016 at 09:29 AM..
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