U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 05-11-2013, 12:07 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,532,338 times
Reputation: 1503

Advertisements

^^^I'll admit that a lot of that housing stock looks like Minneapolis's, so maybe it does have something to do with me not visiting the right areas. However:

1.) That housing stock looks really similar to what you find in most of Cleveland, as well. Milwaukee has more of what I would call the Chicago-style "shotgun homes," but a majority of it is like those pics from KC and what most of Minneapolis looks like: single family bungalows, American four-square, a few brick apartment blocks mixed in.
2.) Within the city-limits, you won't find much that looks "suburban" in Minneapolis. You will within the city limits of KC. Granted, it's because of annexation, but what I'm saying is that 90+% of Minneapolis looks something like what you posted, whereas KC has a lot more housing from mid-century or later.

As far as other differences, I would agree that Minneapolis is not Rust Belt, but it is Grain Belt. The legacy of Minneapolis was tied up in its mills, in the same way that cities further east were linked with their factories. When I think of KC's economic history, I think of it as a city that grew up because it was at a sort of eastern terminus of the cattle trails, which linked it economically with cities further south and west. Minneapolis is also traditionally less African-American and has less southern influences than KC...
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-11-2013, 12:12 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,532,338 times
Reputation: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
Funny, I was thinking about built environment, specifically, when I posted. KC's urban core is contemporary to Minneapolis, having primarily been built between 1900 and 1940, and is about 300K people in 75 square miles and very little of it is mid-century or later.

Now KC annexed a lot of suburban land (which looks a lot like MPLS suburbs). But in town, KC and Minneapolis look alot more similar to my eye than Minneapolis and Cleveland or Milwaukee, which I agree look kind of similar to one another, and share some of the same vernacular that is more common in KC and Minneapolis. All 4 are wood-frame and single family (or subdivided single-family) dominated, but Cleveland and Milwaukee are structurally (and historically) denser. Like Minneapolis, KC has lots of brick apartment blocks dating to the 19-teens and 20s, and the rest is single family homes (often subdivided) on small lots.

In addition tot he built environment similarities, I tend to think KC and Minneapolis are culturally more like one another than either is like Cleveland or Milwaukee. Both KC and MPLS are majority white, which is a pretty big factor in determining culture, they're both around 60%, and they both have about 10% Hispanic populations, while Cleveland and Milwaukee have around 37% white populations. KC and Minneapolis are less Catholic, less Eastern and Southern European immigrant influenced, lest industrial, less rust-belty and more Great Plains-style cities.

Not that I think they are very alike culturally. MPLS is bigger, much more densely populated (though its also much denser than Cleveland), more successful in many way, more liberal and certainly has its own kind unique culture, I just think that culture is MORE similar to KC than Milwaukee (which is more like a satellite or "island off the coast of" Chicago than anything else) or Cleveland, which is 100% Rust Belt, Great Lakes old-school.
As a follow-up, I guess my big disagreement is this: I wouldn't classify Minneapolis as Great Plains, at all. You'd have to go a few hundred miles from the city to really get onto the Great Plains. Minneapolis evolved because of its position on the Mississippi; for most of its history, the area around it was wooded and dotted with lakes. You had small suburbs grow up around the lakes, with their own cottage industries, and a large network of streetcars that linked cities to suburbs and encouraged growth. This is similar to the growth patterns of cities further east.

And, as another aside, while Minneapolis is a traditionally Lutheran city, St. Paul is a Catholic bastion that shares a lot of demographic (and economic...and architectural...) similarities with older Rust Belt cities, as well.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2013, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,227,706 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Trafford View Post
Completely off base, in the US religion and how it is or is not practiced is one of the best indicators of local culture we have. Peoples religion affects how they socialize, vote, spend thier money and choose to live. Religion is 100% about culture

KC has a lot of evangelicals large Baptist and other American grown religions (Assemblies of God, etc...)- they do have a Roman Catholic presence, but it is not dominant.

Much of the midwest has stronger European Roots in religion, Catholic, Luthern, UCC, Orthodox etc.. KC's culture reflects this demographic, its not wrong, its just different.
Completely off base? I think not. Culture is not 100% about religion. And I'd love to see you try and prove that wrong. You're completely off base if you try.

Catholicism not dominant in KC? http://southernnationalist.com/blog/...ligion-map.jpg That clearly shows Catholicism to be the biggest religious force in Jackson County and Clay County.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2013, 12:53 PM
 
2,200 posts, read 2,319,213 times
Reputation: 1941
Quote:
Originally Posted by srsmn View Post
^^^I'll admit that a lot of that housing stock looks like Minneapolis's, so maybe it does have something to do with me not visiting the right areas. However:

1.) That housing stock looks really similar to what you find in most of Cleveland, as well. Milwaukee has more of what I would call the Chicago-style "shotgun homes," but a majority of it is like those pics from KC and what most of Minneapolis looks like: single family bungalows, American four-square, a few brick apartment blocks mixed in.
2.) Within the city-limits, you won't find much that looks "suburban" in Minneapolis. You will within the city limits of KC. Granted, it's because of annexation, but what I'm saying is that 90+% of Minneapolis looks something like what you posted, whereas KC has a lot more housing from mid-century or later.

As far as other differences, I would agree that Minneapolis is not Rust Belt, but it is Grain Belt. The legacy of Minneapolis was tied up in its mills, in the same way that cities further east were linked with their factories. When I think of KC's economic history, I think of it as a city that grew up because it was at a sort of eastern terminus of the cattle trails, which linked it economically with cities further south and west. Minneapolis is also traditionally less African-American and has less southern influences than KC...
More or less, I totally agree.

Last edited by SPonteKC; 05-11-2013 at 01:08 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2013, 01:33 PM
 
352 posts, read 500,248 times
Reputation: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Completely off base? I think not. Culture is not 100% about religion. And I'd love to see you try and prove that wrong. You're completely off base if you try.

Catholicism not dominant in KC? http://southernnationalist.com/blog/...ligion-map.jpg That clearly shows Catholicism to be the biggest religious force in Jackson County and Clay County.
I said religion was 100% about culture, not culture is 100% about religion, culture is influnenced by many things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
And I'd love to see you try and prove that wrong. You're completely off base if you try.
pretty well known in debate and philosophy that you can not "prove" a negative

KC Evangelicals - 415,008 KC Catholics - 256,638 - Means more influence from Evangelicals - also - Evangelicals growing in KC Catholics shrinking

http://www.thearda.com/rcms2010/r/m/..._name_2010.asp
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2013, 01:42 PM
 
2,200 posts, read 2,319,213 times
Reputation: 1941
Quote:
Originally Posted by srsmn View Post
As a follow-up, I guess my big disagreement is this: I wouldn't classify Minneapolis as Great Plains, at all. You'd have to go a few hundred miles from the city to really get onto the Great Plains.
I think you might be just misinterpreting what I mean by a "Great Plains" city. I know Minneapolis is not in the middle of a dusty Prairie, and is a lovely river city with great trees and lovely lakes.

I think of Kansas City as a Great Plains city, even though it's nearly as far from the Great Plains as Minneapolis, and is a hilly, forested, leafy town, as well. That's opposed to Denver, which actually is on the Great Plains, but is no longer culturally a Great Plains city, or Dallas/Austin/San Antonio which are also all on the Great Plains but are so new that their cultures aren't really affected by the economics of the western expansion-era agrarian economy in the way KC and Minneapolis and Omaha are).

Kansas City's historic economy is based not on being the eastern terminus of cattle trails, but on being the southwestern hub of the railroads, in the same way Minneapolis is based on being the northernwestern terminus of the river system. Both provided the extreme western terminuses (Minneapolis at the north and KC at the south) for access of Grain Belt/Great Plains goods to eastern markets during the same era. Both were the industrial processing centers for those agrarians goods (cattle and livestock and stockyards in KC being analogous to grain and mills in Minneapolis) and the shipping centers for those end products.

None of which is to imply that they are particularly similar, especially now. As you noted, KC has a much more significant African American/Great migration cultural tradition, I think it was and probably is a little more blue collar, and it is obviously smaller, less progressive (politically and in terms of urban/civic culture) and it is ethnically, religiously and socially different etc., etc.

What is certain is that they are the westernmost outposts of the midwest's large cities, that they grew up around the same time and that they have some not inconsequential commonalities.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2013, 01:43 PM
 
352 posts, read 500,248 times
Reputation: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago60614 View Post
Do people still go to church everywhere though? I've been in Chicago for twelves years and I think I can think of two people ever who actually mentioned something about going to church on a sunday. I think most people realistically have moved on from actually going to church and buying into everything. You might say you're christian or religious because it's what you're suppose to say, but most people understand it's all just stories.
Its not about adherence its about those values instilled in you by your parents, grand parents, upbringing etc... you may have not set foot in church in 30 years but if you were raised in a church, synagogue, temple, mosque, that is part of you, or if your parents were that is a part of you.

You may reject the theology or means of grace, but all religions have some moral value component, that does not erode.

Americans like to think we invent ourselfs, that we are not betroved to the past, we are actually hybreds of different cutlures and values, you may embrace them, you may reject them but you are a product of them.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2013, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,227,706 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Trafford View Post
I said religion was 100% about culture, not culture is 100% about religion, culture is influnenced by many things.




pretty well known in debate and philosophy that you can not "prove" a negative

KC Evangelicals - 415,008 KC Catholics - 256,638 - Means more influence from Evangelicals - also - Evangelicals growing in KC Catholics shrinking

The Association of Religion Data Archives | Maps & Reports
are we talking about kc in its city limits, or jackson county as a whole? According to my map, jackson,and clay counties are both,more catholic. As far as evangelicals go, if you break them up into subgroups, you will see that southern baptists dont outnumber catholics. Citydata even shows jackson county to have more catholics than southern baptists. So it actually puts us in,a deadlock as we have two conflicting sites. If evangelicals on your site mean solely southern baptists, your data is way off the mark.

Last edited by stlouisan; 05-11-2013 at 02:51 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2013, 02:55 PM
 
352 posts, read 500,248 times
Reputation: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
are we talking about kc in its city limits, or jackson county as a whole? According to my map, jackson,and clay counties are both,more catholic. As far as evangelicals go, if you break them up into subgroups, you will see that southern baptists dont outnumber catholics. Citydata even shows jackson county to have more catholics than southern baptists. So it actually puts us in,a deadlock as we have two conflicting sites. If evangelicals on your site mean solely southern baptists, your data is way off the mark.
Talking about KC metro proper - no other metric makes sense when looking at metro
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2013, 03:49 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,532,338 times
Reputation: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
I think you might be just misinterpreting what I mean by a "Great Plains" city. I know Minneapolis is not in the middle of a dusty Prairie, and is a lovely river city with great trees and lovely lakes.

I think of Kansas City as a Great Plains city, even though it's nearly as far from the Great Plains as Minneapolis, and is a hilly, forested, leafy town, as well. That's opposed to Denver, which actually is on the Great Plains, but is no longer culturally a Great Plains city, or Dallas/Austin/San Antonio which are also all on the Great Plains but are so new that their cultures aren't really affected by the economics of the western expansion-era agrarian economy in the way KC and Minneapolis and Omaha are).

Kansas City's historic economy is based not on being the eastern terminus of cattle trails, but on being the southwestern hub of the railroads, in the same way Minneapolis is based on being the northernwestern terminus of the river system. Both provided the extreme western terminuses (Minneapolis at the north and KC at the south) for access of Grain Belt/Great Plains goods to eastern markets during the same era. Both were the industrial processing centers for those agrarians goods (cattle and livestock and stockyards in KC being analogous to grain and mills in Minneapolis) and the shipping centers for those end products.

None of which is to imply that they are particularly similar, especially now. As you noted, KC has a much more significant African American/Great migration cultural tradition, I think it was and probably is a little more blue collar, and it is obviously smaller, less progressive (politically and in terms of urban/civic culture) and it is ethnically, religiously and socially different etc., etc.

What is certain is that they are the westernmost outposts of the midwest's large cities, that they grew up around the same time and that they have some not inconsequential commonalities.
I can agree with the bulk of this. I would say that Great Plains is tricky terminology. Omaha or Lincoln are decidedly Great Plains; OKC or Tulsa strike me as Great Plains with a strong influence from the South/Southwest. I think that Minneapolis and KC are in the same class in that they are "Gateways" to the west, historically and economically. St. Paul is sometimes called the "Last Great City of the East," in fact. I don't know what a better description than Great Plains is, but when I think (back) to Minneapolis, I don't think we're associated culturally with the Plains. Rather, with the rivers, woods, and lakes...
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top