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Old 05-20-2013, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,225,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieIndy View Post
Outside of KC and St. Louis I have always considered Missouri southern. It may have to do with slavery and Mark Twain?
If that's why you consider it Southern, you need to realize that Missouri is very different from what it was pre-Civil War. And you're suggesting that KC and STL are two solidly Midwestern cities surrounded by a sea of Southerness...completely illogical. Missouri pretty much demographically (except for religion), culturally, and pretty much linguistically is a Lower Midwest state.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,225,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia, Kentucky, and yes, Missouri. The border states.
Katiana, they are border states from a historical perspective. Since the Civil War, they have all split and joined regions. Missouri pretty much joined the Midwest, Kentucky joined the South, West Virginia joined the South, and Maryland and Delaware joined the Northeast. They are NOT border states by today's standards.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:59 AM
 
12,633 posts, read 10,483,539 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
I think you accidentally omitted Illinois (one of the quintessential Midwest states) and inadvertently added Oklahoma.

Every map I've ever seen of the true Midwest is: Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, "Meechigan", Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana. (These are the states that are culturally Midwest too.)
I did accidentally omit Illinois (oops), but I did not inadvertently add Oklahoma.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:21 AM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,412 posts, read 7,703,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
I did accidentally omit Illinois (oops), but I did not inadvertently add Oklahoma.
Gotcha.

I think in your other post you mentioned that you have not lived (or visited?) Oklahoma. That might help with your assessment of proper geographic/cultural designation of Oklahoma and Texas, which I think you questioned Tejas' historical/culturally accepted delineation in the West South Central along with Oklahoma. You're entitled to your opinion, however different it may be from the majority's utilization of historical and cultural demarcations. (I tend to be a bit of a non-conformist myself.)

There are a few topographical similarities (and tornadoes!) that Oklahoma shares with the Midwest, say Kansas/Missouri for example, but that is where the commonalities cease. Culturally, Oklahoma is essentially a westernized version of Arkansas; and further, there are parts of east Texas that are as Deep South as just about anywhere save maybe Mississippi/Bammer.

To each his (or her) own though. Good dialogue.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Not where you ever lived
11,544 posts, read 25,982,050 times
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I came to the party late. I've lived in many of the Midwestern states and Central Southern states, and I lived in OK/MO 'tornado alley' a couple of times. I think the "experts" who pontificate, opine, and compile lists 'ain't never been there'. They broad brush because they don't know the difference. I think other than extreme weather, MN, MI, WI, IL, E.IA, and W.IN., share a common time zone, enjoy four very distinct seasons, generally enjoy a good growing medium, are rich in forests and large bodies of. water, have/had a similar state tax structure, and share some kind/type of common history. Based on hours of travel, and general travel experience, I feel that TN, KY, MO, AR, OK are Central Southern sates whereas KS, NE, and the Dakotas are Central Northern. The balance of the western U.S. identify as Southwestern, Northwestern and California.

Physical size aside, I don't think Tulsa, St. Louis, Des Moine, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, KC, Indy, Chicago or Cleveland share much, feel the same or have the same vibe - even though they may offer the same stores, the same restaurants, and the same or very similar amenities.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:25 PM
 
2,200 posts, read 2,317,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STLgasm View Post
Kansas City's dialect is much more western/country sounding than that of St. Louis, it's just a fact.
No its not. Look again at the map you just posted. KC is smack dab in the middle of a dialect region that stretches east to the east coast...and only as far west as the Nebraska panhandle. West of that is...wait for it:


THE WEST.

Its the enormouse purple blob on your screen in the map.

I realize how very, very important it is to you to repeatingly assert how different "eastern" StL is from "country & western" KC, but damn, man...

KC doesn't have the same accent as St Louis, but that doesn't make it Western. Or country. It's very close to Received Pronunciation, which is the linguistic approximation of "standard" or "unnaccented" speech. Both western and "country" dialects are non-standard, for lack of a better word.

Quote:
KC is just kind of western. Yes, it's a midwestern city, but it has always had less in common with the Rust Belt than with some of the younger cities to the west. I really don't think I'm alone in saying this. It did not develop the same ethnic enclaves that older cities of the northeast/midwest did. I think St. Louis and Kansas City feel almost like they're in two different states; they just don't seem to be very similar at all in culture, tradition or history.
You're not alone in saying it, and you're not alone in being mostly wrong and a little right.

KC is not western at all, it hasn't been in over a century, and the time it was "western" was the briefest historical moment imaginable. And it shows. KC bears significantly less in common culturally, demographically and even historically with anywhere in the West than it does with almost everywhere in the midwest. KC is certainly more like Columbus, Cincinnati, Omaha, Minneapolis than it is like Los Angeles, Tuscon, Portland, or even Denver (nowadays).

What's more, KC is more like St Louis than Seattle (or any other western substitute) by a long, long way. Maybe a quarter century ago, you could have made a case for Denver, but those days are gone. There are many cities in the midwest (and northeast) with fewer remaining ethnic enclaves than KC, and there are cities in the West with more ethnic enclaves than KC...or St Louis for that matter, which is not exactly a Balkanized city of tight little ethnic enclaves anymore, in fact there's really just a couple (and that's being generous) true remaining ethnic enclaves in St Louis, to say nothing of other midwestern KC-peers like Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Columbus, Milwaukee, etc. Anyway you slice it, it's a pretty poor litmus test of what is midwestern and what is western.

St Louis has some undeniable historical prominence that KC (or Cincy or Columbus or Indianapolis or Minneapolis or etc.) doesn't, and is a great town even in its present incarnation. I love bouncing around there and soaking it in. And KC may well be more "western" than St Louis, in part because its, you know, further west (but mostly you and the other people who repeat that tired refrain just mean its younger), but there is not a single city in the West that KC shares more in common with culturally than it does with St Louis. There's your "fact".

Sorry. I know it bugs you.

Last edited by SPonteKC; 05-20-2013 at 12:34 PM..
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
6,839 posts, read 6,178,314 times
Reputation: 6116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post

Culturally, Oklahoma is essentially a westernized version of Arkansas
Gonna have to vehemently disagree here. Certainly the parts of Oklahoma that are close to Arkansas are like Arkansas but most of Oklahoma is like the state that it is closest to. And for the most part that state would be Texas. However, the NW part of the state is very much like Kansas (Alva, Buffalo, Medford, Blackwell).

And for that matter, other than their eastern fringes the great plains states have very little in common with the midwest. Dodge City, KS, Scottsbluff Neb, Rapid City, SD, Williston, ND have virtually nothing in common with the midwest.

However, we will have to have Mr. Stlousian throw in his "cultural, demographic and linguistic" synopsis of that observation.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:44 PM
 
890 posts, read 1,078,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.davis View Post
No its not. Look again at the map you just posted. KC is smack dab in the middle of a dialect region that stretches east to the east coast...and only as far west as the Nebraska panhandle. West of that is...wait for it:


THE WEST.

Its the enormouse purple blob on your screen in the map.

I realize how very, very important it is to you to repeatingly assert how different "eastern" StL is from "country & western" KC, but damn, man...

KC doesn't have the same accent as St Louis, but that doesn't make it Western. Or country. It's very close to Received Pronunciation, which is the linguistic approximation of "standard" or "unnaccented" speech. Both western and "country" dialects are non-standard, for lack of a better word.

You're not alone in saying it, and you're not alone in being mostly wrong and a little right.

KC is not western at all, it hasn't been in over a century, and the time it was "western" was the briefest historical moment imaginable. And it shows. KC bears significantly less in common culturally, demographically and even historically with anywhere in the West than it does with almost everywhere in the midwest. KC is certainly more like Columbus, Cincinnati, Omaha, Minneapolis than it is like Los Angeles, Tuscon, Portland, or even Denver (nowadays).

What's more, KC is more like St Louis than Seattle (or any other western substitute) by a long, long way. Maybe a quarter century ago, you could have made a case for Denver, but those days are gone. There are many cities in the midwest (and northeast) with fewer remaining ethnic enclaves than KC, and there are cities in the West with more ethnic enclaves than KC...or St Louis for that matter, which is not exactly a Balkanized city of tight little ethnic enclaves anymore, in fact there's really just a couple (and that's being generous) true remaining ethnic enclaves in St Louis, to say nothing of other midwestern KC-peers like Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Columbus, Milwaukee, etc. Anyway you slice it, it's a pretty poor litmus test of what is midwestern and what is western.

St Louis has some undeniable historical prominence that KC (or Cincy or Columbus or Indianapolis or Minneapolis or etc.) doesn't, and is a great town even in its present incarnation. I love bouncing around there and soaking it in. And KC may well be more "western" than St Louis, in part because its, you know, further west (but mostly you and the other people who repeat that tired refrain just mean its younger), but there is not a single city in the West that KC shares more in common with culturally than it does with St Louis. There's your "fact".

Sorry. I know it bugs you.
You raise some great points, and I will concede that I do agree that KC is more similar to the Columbus/Indianapolis brand of Midwestern cities vs. undeniably western cities. I guess my ultimate point was that KC is not a Rust Belt city, it doesn't feel like a Rust Belt city, it doesn't have a shared history with Rust Belt cities. Perhaps I botched that point with the "western" argument. So fine, you might be right. From my St. Louis frame of reference, KC feels more western, but perhaps it's more of an age/historic status thing than anything else.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:01 PM
 
2,200 posts, read 2,317,272 times
Reputation: 1941
Quote:
Originally Posted by STLgasm View Post
You raise some great points, and I will concede that I do agree that KC is more similar to the Columbus/Indianapolis brand of Midwestern cities vs. undeniably western cities. I guess my ultimate point was that KC is not a Rust Belt city, it doesn't feel like a Rust Belt city, it doesn't have a shared history with Rust Belt cities. Perhaps I botched that point with the "western" argument. So fine, you might be right. From my St. Louis frame of reference, KC feels more western, but perhaps it's more of an age/historic status thing than anything else.
Fair enough. My reply was obviously too snarky by half, and I apologize.

And you are right, KC is not a rust belt city. It has a proportionally larger, more important industrial history than most western cities, however. KC is strongly unionized city, still has a couple major auto plants and supply plants, has a significant place in the history of organized labor, had steel mills, factories, and industry, had a large and cultural enormous slaughtering industry, and is still shaped strongly by its Great Migration history. Its certainly not on the same level as St Louis or Cleveland or Detroit in those regards, but neither is Cincinnati or even Milwaukee. It's more like a spectrum. It bears mentioning that some very clearly core Rust Belt cities, like Buffalo, Toledo, etc. are a lot like Kansas City in terms of built environment, demographics, core city size, etc. But this is not because they are less a part of the Rust Belt than Detroit, it's because they, like KC, are younger and not as historically significant as Cincinnati, St Louis, Cleveland, et al.

I guess in the context of this conversation, I feel like I should reiterate my belief that the Rust Belt is not a synonym for the midwest (any more than The Corn Belt is). Most of the Rust Belt is in the midwest, and its a part of the midwest I am particularly fond of, with a huge historical and current sphere of influence in midwestern culture, but it's not contiguous with or solely definitive of the Middle West, and there's a pretty clear and intentional conflation of those terms around the city-nerd internet sphere. KC is really a transition city between the 2 largest economic and cultural regions of the midwest. To me, that makes it 100% midwestern.

Last edited by SPonteKC; 05-20-2013 at 02:37 PM..
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:30 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,412 posts, read 7,703,380 times
Reputation: 3054
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
Gonna have to vehemently disagree here. Certainly the parts of Oklahoma that are close to Arkansas are like Arkansas but most of Oklahoma is like the state that it is closest to. And for the most part that state would be Texas. However, the NW part of the state is very much like Kansas (Alva, Buffalo, Medford, Blackwell).

And for that matter, other than their eastern fringes the great plains states have very little in common with the midwest. Dodge City, KS, Scottsbluff Neb, Rapid City, SD, Williston, ND have virtually nothing in common with the midwest.

However, we will have to have Mr. Stlousian throw in his "cultural, demographic and linguistic" synopsis of that observation.
We'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm sure I could have been more specific.

Oklahoma to me is really a conglomeration primarily and throughout the majority of the state a cultural (not talking topography here) mixture of Western Arkansas, North Texas, and West Texas. Lately my work has afforded me the opportunity to meet a lot of folks from West Texas and I have been seeing a lot of cultural commonalities based on overall feel, attitude/demeanor, and speech patterns. Interesting stuff! As much as I dislike the Red Raider fans, the Sooner/Cowboy fans share some characteristics with 'em.

And, as has been shown throughout the vast majority of this thread, Oklahoma is not a "Midwest" state. Whatever Oklahoma is, we can truthfully say it is not in the same cultural/historical region as the traditionally understood delineation of what comprises the Midwest: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wiskey, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, and Iowa.

Oklahoma (along with West Arkansas and Texas) is the Western-South, or my preferred delineation, the South-Central. Southwest (the opposite border within the overall region as the Southeast) probably works the best as long as you specify a difference between the Southwest and Desert Southwest (as Okie1962 alluded to in another thread). Oklahoma/Texas (and West Arkansas), are SOUTHwestern. Arizona and New Mexico are SouthWESTERN. There is a distinct difference on host of levels.

BTW: good word choice "vehemently" = haven't heard that one in a while.
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