U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-05-2018, 08:44 AM
 
4 posts, read 2,493 times
Reputation: 13

Advertisements

language is inextricably tied to "culture" and surroundings
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-05-2018, 09:03 AM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,845,880 times
Reputation: 2585
The following statements are only about Chicago which I consider the heart of NCVS (all features present in those with strongest accents):

Full NCVS to me seems confined to mostly Whites who are native*. Blacks rarely if ever have NCVS in Chicago and if they do it is partial. I know Sheriff Clarke has it and he isn't from Chicago so my point stands.

I once encountered an old Chinese guy with the full shift. That was a rare occurrence. Latinos with the full shift do exist but often I find these grew up around mostly Whites. Those who grew up around Latinos maintain Spanish aspects of their dialect even if minimal. Personally I find this sexy on women anyway as Chicago accented females don't have the prettiest voices. Still better than California by miles though.

*I will make the exception for North Shore minorities. They have quite strong NCVS. Everyone I knew from New Trier, Evanston Township, and Highland Park High schools has full NCVS regardless of race. And many of my North Shore friends throughout the years are not WASPy or even Jewish but quite "ethnic" in the aspect of being neither Western European nor even European many times in terms of ancestry. Doesn't matter because their NCVS is quite pronounced.

Just go to Old Orchard or Northbrook Court or really just any spot on the North Shore. No matter what NCVS will be heard regardless of race. The exception to this are West Indians sometimes.

Other places NCVS is strong regardless of race is Northwest Indiana. Except for Blacks most people there have it even non-Whites. As far as city neighborhoods that aren't ethnic White/Irish (the core NCVS speakers), this varies a ton as gentrification has started taking over. That's the city.

Now as far as the burbs outside of the North Shore? The West burbs have it to a point. The closer you get to Aurora the weaker it gets though. Out by Joliet people start to sound more standard Midwest/ Midland (by Minooka NCVS is as good as dead). As NCVS extends North and not West this makes sense. The Northern boundary of NCVS is very far from Chicago. The Western boundary on the other hand is rather immediate and I feel the Fox River could be considered or something thereabouts. Southern NCVS boundary is probably around Peotone or the Kankakee River. Note the Southern boundary actually is further South in Indiana than Illinois as Chicago's sphere of influence dips further South in that state interestingly. I feel you can hear NCVS in Indiana as far South as Rensselaer. Eastern boundary is obviously a non issue as NCVS almost extends to the Atlantic but you can consider the full NCVS to die somewhere in New York. Crazy how it practically ends once you go a bit West of the Chicago metro though. NCVS does extend West into Minnesota but really only covers Chicago in Illinois.

The interesting exception to all of this is how interstate 55 manages to carry NCVS to its VERY Southern terminus in St. Louis. To give you perspective, St. Louis is only 25 miles north of Louisville, KY. But outside of the 55 corridor NCVS is not represented well in Chicago's home state. But since Chicago and Metro East make up VERY large and dense parts of Illinois, NCVS has the numerical representation at least. What I do know is that minorities of St. Louis are mostly Black and they have no trace of this shift there either. Also Whites of St. Louis speak in Midland accents but with NCVS and very uniquely St. Louis pronunciations so they have their own brand of weirdness.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2018, 09:09 AM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,845,880 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1DooWopper View Post
language is inextricably tied to "culture" and surroundings
History of NCVS is tied to people of mostly European descent so it is logical that they will have it the greatest.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2018, 12:38 PM
 
Location: NY, NY
1,208 posts, read 1,459,739 times
Reputation: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerFilms View Post
Wait, "Stoop" is a New York thing? I've always said stoop lol. I know New York is famous for its stoops especially on brownstones but I didn't know that was a word FROM New York. I've never been to New York, not even close to it but I'm a quarter Dutch and a quarter Italian so I guess deep down that technically makes me half New Yorker!

I use Yiddish phrases sometimes too, and I'm Catholic! I used to say "oy vey," its just a fun phrase.
Since moving to Minnesota , I catch myself saying "uff da" though. Had a customer the other day kept throwing that word left and right, hah!
Stoop is not necessarily a New York thing. The word stoop has Dutch origins, which probably explains why you are so familiar with it. However, because NYC was the only major city settled by the Dutch, the word stoop has held on in NYC in everyday use.


Everyone in NYC area knows what a stoop is, but it is not that popular in the rest of the US. Kind of like NOT putting mustard on a burger, it's never done in the NYC area but it's popular in the rest of the US.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2018, 04:31 PM
 
11,456 posts, read 6,584,119 times
Reputation: 6091
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
The following statements are only about Chicago which I consider the heart of NCVS (all features present in those with strongest accents):

Full NCVS to me seems confined to mostly Whites who are native*. Blacks rarely if ever have NCVS in Chicago and if they do it is partial. I know Sheriff Clarke has it and he isn't from Chicago so my point stands.

I once encountered an old Chinese guy with the full shift. That was a rare occurrence. Latinos with the full shift do exist but often I find these grew up around mostly Whites. Those who grew up around Latinos maintain Spanish aspects of their dialect even if minimal. Personally I find this sexy on women anyway as Chicago accented females don't have the prettiest voices. Still better than California by miles though.

*I will make the exception for North Shore minorities. They have quite strong NCVS. Everyone I knew from New Trier, Evanston Township, and Highland Park High schools has full NCVS regardless of race. And many of my North Shore friends throughout the years are not WASPy or even Jewish but quite "ethnic" in the aspect of being neither Western European nor even European many times in terms of ancestry. Doesn't matter because their NCVS is quite pronounced.

Just go to Old Orchard or Northbrook Court or really just any spot on the North Shore. No matter what NCVS will be heard regardless of race. The exception to this are West Indians sometimes.

Other places NCVS is strong regardless of race is Northwest Indiana. Except for Blacks most people there have it even non-Whites. As far as city neighborhoods that aren't ethnic White/Irish (the core NCVS speakers), this varies a ton as gentrification has started taking over. That's the city.

Now as far as the burbs outside of the North Shore? The West burbs have it to a point. The closer you get to Aurora the weaker it gets though. Out by Joliet people start to sound more standard Midwest/ Midland (by Minooka NCVS is as good as dead). As NCVS extends North and not West this makes sense. The Northern boundary of NCVS is very far from Chicago. The Western boundary on the other hand is rather immediate and I feel the Fox River could be considered or something thereabouts. Southern NCVS boundary is probably around Peotone or the Kankakee River. Note the Southern boundary actually is further South in Indiana than Illinois as Chicago's sphere of influence dips further South in that state interestingly. I feel you can hear NCVS in Indiana as far South as Rensselaer. Eastern boundary is obviously a non issue as NCVS almost extends to the Atlantic but you can consider the full NCVS to die somewhere in New York. Crazy how it practically ends once you go a bit West of the Chicago metro though. NCVS does extend West into Minnesota but really only covers Chicago in Illinois.

The interesting exception to all of this is how interstate 55 manages to carry NCVS to its VERY Southern terminus in St. Louis. To give you perspective, St. Louis is only 25 miles north of Louisville, KY. But outside of the 55 corridor NCVS is not represented well in Chicago's home state. But since Chicago and Metro East make up VERY large and dense parts of Illinois, NCVS has the numerical representation at least. What I do know is that minorities of St. Louis are mostly Black and they have no trace of this shift there either. Also Whites of St. Louis speak in Midland accents but with NCVS and very uniquely St. Louis pronunciations so they have their own brand of weirdness.
Kind of like in New York you only hear that stereotypical new York accent among old Jews and Italians for the most part (and the city has become decreasingly Italian over the years).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2018, 04:54 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,845,880 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by l1995 View Post
Kind of like in New York you only hear that stereotypical new York accent among old Jews and Italians for the most part (and the city has become decreasingly Italian over the years).
I think NYC is ethnolect central. Black NYC accent, Latino NYC accent, Yiddish influenced NYC, and finally standard NYC which is de facto choice of everyone else. I don't think Chicago has gotten there yet nor do I see it as necessarily in the future.

If anything NCVS could be considered an American specific ethnolect mostly used by those of Irish background and those who live around them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2018, 05:21 PM
BMI
 
Location: Ontario
7,265 posts, read 4,501,168 times
Reputation: 5613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookiepie788 View Post
Watch the movie “Home Alone” from 1990. All of the child actors from the Chicago area had the NCVS. The shift has been around for a good 50 years. You will not notice it if you have it.
You’re right. I was just watching Home alone the other night and I noticed canadian actor John Candy
(from Toronto) put on a Chicago NCVS accent, Catherine O’Hara, who played the mom, also from Toronto,
didn’t bother to, she said did say the sorry the american way early in the movie, “sarry” , then later in the movie said sorry the canadian way, “sorey”. Jim Carrey made same slip up in the movie “The Truman Show”.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2018, 05:53 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,845,880 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMI View Post
You’re right. I was just watching Home alone the other night and I noticed canadian actor John Candy
(from Toronto) put on a Chicago NCVS accent, Catherine O’Hara, who played the mom, also from Toronto,
didn’t bother to, she said did say the sorry the american way early in the movie, “sarry” , then later in the movie said sorry the canadian way, “sorey”. Jim Carrey made same slip up in the movie “The Truman Show”.
Good ear. I never noticed this. Catherine O'Hara and John Candy both look like native Chicagoans from the South Side to me just based on physical appearance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2018, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Reno, NV
1,546 posts, read 710,668 times
Reputation: 1988
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieOlSkool View Post
The following statements are only about Chicago which I consider the heart of NCVS (all features present in those with strongest accents):

Full NCVS to me seems confined to mostly Whites who are native*. Blacks rarely if ever have NCVS in Chicago and if they do it is partial. I know Sheriff Clarke has it and he isn't from Chicago so my point stands.

I once encountered an old Chinese guy with the full shift. That was a rare occurrence. Latinos with the full shift do exist but often I find these grew up around mostly Whites. Those who grew up around Latinos maintain Spanish aspects of their dialect even if minimal. Personally I find this sexy on women anyway as Chicago accented females don't have the prettiest voices. Still better than California by miles though.

*I will make the exception for North Shore minorities. They have quite strong NCVS. Everyone I knew from New Trier, Evanston Township, and Highland Park High schools has full NCVS regardless of race. And many of my North Shore friends throughout the years are not WASPy or even Jewish but quite "ethnic" in the aspect of being neither Western European nor even European many times in terms of ancestry. Doesn't matter because their NCVS is quite pronounced.

Just go to Old Orchard or Northbrook Court or really just any spot on the North Shore. No matter what NCVS will be heard regardless of race. The exception to this are West Indians sometimes.

Other places NCVS is strong regardless of race is Northwest Indiana. Except for Blacks most people there have it even non-Whites. As far as city neighborhoods that aren't ethnic White/Irish (the core NCVS speakers), this varies a ton as gentrification has started taking over. That's the city.

Now as far as the burbs outside of the North Shore? The West burbs have it to a point. The closer you get to Aurora the weaker it gets though. Out by Joliet people start to sound more standard Midwest/ Midland (by Minooka NCVS is as good as dead). As NCVS extends North and not West this makes sense. The Northern boundary of NCVS is very far from Chicago. The Western boundary on the other hand is rather immediate and I feel the Fox River could be considered or something thereabouts. Southern NCVS boundary is probably around Peotone or the Kankakee River. Note the Southern boundary actually is further South in Indiana than Illinois as Chicago's sphere of influence dips further South in that state interestingly. I feel you can hear NCVS in Indiana as far South as Rensselaer. Eastern boundary is obviously a non issue as NCVS almost extends to the Atlantic but you can consider the full NCVS to die somewhere in New York. Crazy how it practically ends once you go a bit West of the Chicago metro though. NCVS does extend West into Minnesota but really only covers Chicago in Illinois.

The interesting exception to all of this is how interstate 55 manages to carry NCVS to its VERY Southern terminus in St. Louis. To give you perspective, St. Louis is only 25 miles north of Louisville, KY. But outside of the 55 corridor NCVS is not represented well in Chicago's home state. But since Chicago and Metro East make up VERY large and dense parts of Illinois, NCVS has the numerical representation at least. What I do know is that minorities of St. Louis are mostly Black and they have no trace of this shift there either. Also Whites of St. Louis speak in Midland accents but with NCVS and very uniquely St. Louis pronunciations so they have their own brand of weirdness.
Back when I worked at Denny's, I had a coworker from Danville around my age who had the NCVS in full flair. He'd moved up to the Chicago area recently, so either it's started to spread down pretty far or he's a great mimic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2018, 06:36 PM
 
4,802 posts, read 3,845,880 times
Reputation: 2585
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTimidBlueBars View Post
Back when I worked at Denny's, I had a coworker from Danville around my age who had the NCVS in full flair. He'd moved up to the Chicago area recently, so either it's started to spread down pretty far or he's a great mimic.
That's strange but he also may have been from somewhere in the 55 corridor along the Illinois River. If a native, well that's interesting because in Kankakee it is practically absent altogether. I wonder if some Chicagoans made their way down there. When I was in Danville everyone just spoke plain old General American.

I know NCVS does "cut" a line through Illinois where it is surrounded by Midland dialects so perhaps a mishmash occurs. Peoria has the most interesting dialect because it sounds like a General American accent but with NCVS so the person sounds "almost" correct depending on how you look at it.

Also, John C. Reilly and Melissa McCarthy are from around Joliet. Neither has NCVS in my opinion. People from Joliet proper can have it to good degrees but I feel that once you leave it the shift just dies either west or east of the town
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top