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Old 12-27-2013, 04:31 PM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
2,069 posts, read 2,198,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
Your first pic is Monument Valley, in Arizona. Been there many, many times and would recognize it anywhere. The ONLY part of TX that even barely resembles Monument Valley is a single mountain: El Capitan in the Guadalupe mountains, which is on the New Mexico border and barely even in the state of Texas. Even then, it's not as scenic as Monument Valley. Most of Trans-Pecos Texas looks more like this:

Attachment 122875

I know that. I was just showing people that there are indeed parts of Texas with carved escarpments and formations resembling many areas in the Southwest. Like in Big Bend National Park:


http://www.city-data.com/forum/membe...t-davis-54.jpg

As for the second pic, the only place you're going to find sand dunes outside of the gulf coast beaches is the Monahans sand hills near Midland-Odessa, which is an extremely small and isolated area that few Texans even know exists. It's not even in the true desert part of West Texas either. It's in the Permian basin, which is semi-arid Steppe.

That picture is Monahans sand hills. A popular area for sand boarding in the State of Texas. It is not a true desert, but the sands do look desert-like. And even if it is semi-arid instead of arid, semi-arid climates aren't really associated with the South, and such climates can be found in large swaths of Texas and Oklahoma. Semi-arid drought-like nadirs can be experienced even in Austin, and San Antonio, although both areas are Humid Subtropical

Also, plenty of people in both Trans-Pecos TX and the Oklahoma panhandle "practice southern customs and mannerisms". Probably even more so than in South Florida.

But the majority of people in those areas in the two states practice a rugged frontier ranching culture. There is too much of a southwestern influence in both Texas and Oklahoma for them to be more southern than Florida, especially as people even in South Florida away from urban areas practice southern customs.
I don't know why people are saying Florida is the least southern. The entire state, from Panhandle to peninsula, is covered with swamp, marsh, and forest. There are populations all over the state, from the panhandle to the peninsula, that practice Southern customs.
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Old 12-27-2013, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Who Cares, USA
2,343 posts, read 2,751,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
I don't know why people are saying Florida is the least southern. The entire state, from Panhandle to peninsula, is covered with swamp, marsh, and forest. There are populations all over the state, from the panhandle to the peninsula, that practice Southern customs.
And there are populations ALL OVER Texas and Oklahoma that do the same. I don't get what you're driving at, other than your usual crusade to declare Texas as more Southwestern than Southern.

I don't know if Florida is more or less Southern than Texas and I honestly don't care. Both states are geographically in the South and they both differ from other parts of the South even though they're quite different from each other... and that's all I really know for sure. Obviously South Florida isn't your typically Southern area, but it's still less than half of that state.

As far as which state that is actually in the South but shares the least in common with the rest of the South, I'd probably vote for Missouri. The only part of Missouri that feels Southern to me (and that's taking all angles into account; culture, topography, climate, etc.) is the extreme Southern part of the state. The rest feels very Great Plains/Midwest. So, in other words, if we're gauging this on what percentage of a Southern state actually feels Southern, I'd say Missouri has the smallest percentage.
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Old 12-27-2013, 05:31 PM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
2,069 posts, read 2,198,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
And there are populations ALL OVER Texas and Oklahoma that do the same. I don't get what you're driving at, other than your usual crusade to declare Texas as more Southwestern than Southern.

The difference is, that the customs seen in much of Texas and Oklahoma are blended with "frontier" ideals and with a western essence. The customs in Florida are pure, undiluted southern.

I don't know if Florida is more or less Southern than Texas and I honestly don't care. Both states are geographically in the South and they both differ from other parts of the South even though they're quite different from each other... and that's all I really know for sure. Obviously South Florida isn't your typically Southern area, but it's still less than half of that state.

All of Florida is located in the geographic "American South." In contrast, only half of Texas, and Oklahoma are in the geographic "American South." In the case of Texas, I-35 is the dividing line, and it runs along the Balcones Escarpment, the barrier that separates the geographic South and the geographic West.

As far as which state that is actually in the South but shares the least in common with the rest of the South, I'd probably vote for Missouri. The only part of Missouri that feels Southern to me (and that's taking all angles into account; culture, topography, climate, etc.) is the extreme Southern part of the state. The rest feels very Great Plains/Midwest. So, in other words, if we're gauging this on what percentage of a Southern state actually feels Southern, I'd say Missouri has the smallest percentage.

Missouri isn't southern, its Midwestern (according to the US Census Bureau).
The answer is Texas and Oklahoma, as the two states are open to interpretation on whether they are Southern or Southwestern (Or even their own region).
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Who Cares, USA
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I'm really not sure why you quote people's posts the way you do by making it all one big blurb, but whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
The difference is, that the customs seen in much of Texas and Oklahoma are blended with "frontier" ideals and with a western essence. The customs in Florida are pure, undiluted southern.
This sounds like something you got from an old Western movie. I mean, I know what you're trying to say, but it still doesn't hold up well in this debate. Any sense of "frontier" mentality in Texas evaporated probably some time in the early 70's. Yes, much of Trans-Pecos Texas still feels wild and untamed, but that's because outside of El Paso barely anybody lives there. And since we're talking about culture, or "customs"... those are something directly related to human beings and civilization. Where there's little or no humans or civilization, it's kind of a moot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
All of Florida is located in the geographic "American South." In contrast, only half of Texas, and Oklahoma are in the geographic "American South." In the case of Texas, I-35 is the dividing line, and it runs along the Balcones Escarpment, the barrier that separates the geographic South and the geographic West.
So now you're changing your boundaries from the Mississippi River to I-35? I've also seen you frequently use the Sabine and Trinity Rivers as your "official" line of demarcation when it's been convenient. Dude, pick a boundary and stick with it. And if you're talking about the GEOGRAPHIC American South, well, sorry but that is the entire state of Texas - top to bottom, front to back. Culture, topography, and climate may vary greatly... but no one state in this nation officially straddles two geographic regions. There are only borders.

Have you ever been to Trans-Pecos Texas? I have. Many, many times. I used to spend a lot of time hiking and camping in the Davis Mountains, and got to know a few of the locals in Fort Davis, Van Horn, and Marfa. They all seemed just as culturally Southern to me as many people in East Texas, though obviously they were geared towards a more rugged and Western area by default. The only real difference was that they swatted flies instead of mosquitoes on their front porches.

Now, El Paso is a different story. Most traces of "Southern" pretty much disappear once you get into that town. El Paso really does feel more in-step with the true Southwest than it does with the rest of Texas... but on a technicality it's still geographically at the very extreme Western tip of... you guessed it... the South.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Missouri isn't southern, its Midwestern (according to the US Census Bureau).
OK, I'll give you that one... but I've heard many people refer to Missouri as a Southern state, even people from Missouri.
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:23 PM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
2,069 posts, read 2,198,405 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
I'm really not sure why you quote people's posts the way you do by making it all one big blurb, but whatever.
More convenient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
This sounds like something you got from an old Western movie. I mean, I know what you're trying to say, but it still doesn't hold up well in this debate. Any sense of "frontier" mentality in Texas evaporated probably some time in the early 70's. Yes, much of Trans-Pecos Texas still feels wild and untamed, but that's because outside of El Paso barely anybody lives there. And since we're talking about culture, or "customs"... those are something directly related to human beings and civilization. Where there's little or no humans or civilization, it's kind of a moot point.
But I've seen many people in Trans-Pecos Texas that practice a "western" ranching culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
So now you're changing your boundaries from the Mississippi River to I-35? I've also seen you frequently use the Sabine and Trinity Rivers as your "official" line of demarcation when it's been convenient. Dude, pick a boundary and stick with it. And if you're talking about the GEOGRAPHIC American South, well, sorry but that is the entire state of Texas - top to bottom, front to back. Culture, topography, and climate may vary greatly... but no one state in this nation officially straddles two geographic regions. There are only borders.
No, I have always argued.
Westernmost part of the GEOGRAPHIC American South: I-35/Balcones Escarpment
Westernmost part of the CULTURAL American South: Trinity River

Texas west of I-35 is often considered to be where the west starts. Many western species reach their eastern limit at the Balcones Fault, and many eastern species reach their western limit along the fault.

Then again, the US Census includes Texas and Oklahoma in the American South.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
Have you ever been to Trans-Pecos Texas? I have. Many, many times. I used to spend a lot of time hiking and camping in the Davis Mountains, and got to know a few of the locals in Fort Davis, Van Horn, and Marfa. They all seemed just as culturally Southern to me as many people in East Texas, though obviously they were geared towards a more rugged and Western area by default. The only real difference was that they swatted flies instead of mosquitoes on their front porches.

Now, El Paso is a different story. Most traces of "Southern" pretty much disappear once you get into that town. El Paso really does feel more in-step with the true Southwest than it does with the rest of Texas... but on a technicality it's still geographically at the very extreme Western tip of... you guessed it... the South.
Yes, I have been to Pecos Texas. There were some that practiced Southern customs, but there were others that held a rugged, western lifestyle on the ranches. The cultural Southwest extends all the way to around the 104 meridian to be generous. I know what you mean about El Paso, being that it is a border town. It is a culturally Southwestern city, but its state just so happens to be included in the Census regarded South.
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Who Cares, USA
2,343 posts, read 2,751,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
But I've seen many people in Trans-Pecos Texas that practice a "western" ranching culture.
Ranching "culture", or let's just say RANCHES... are pretty much everywhere in rural Texas outside of the East Texas Woodlands. Most of the West side of the Houston metro was developed on top of what was formerly cattle ranches. There are probably more ranches just outside of Houston than there are in Trans-Pecos Texas. The only things distinguishing any kind of "Western" aspect to the ranches in West Texas versus the ones further East are purely topographical and climatological in nature... NOT cultural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
No, I have always argued.
Westernmost part of the GEOGRAPHIC American South: I-35/Balcones Escarpment
Westernmost part of the CULTURAL American South: Trinity River
No, I've actually seen you argue the Sabine and Mississippi Rivers for both cultural and geographical boundaries. Several times in fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Texas west of I-35 is often considered to be where the west starts. Many western species reach their eastern limit at the Balcones Fault, and many eastern species reach their western limit along the fault.
That whole I-35 thing is really only popular on C-D. The whole time I lived in Texas, whether it was Houston, Austin, or Dallas... I almost never heard anybody use the I-35 model as some kind of "gateway to the West". It was just where the hill country began... NOT some massive division between different cultures. The only people I ever did hear that from were newbie transplants who weren't very familiar with the local culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Yes, I have been to Pecos Texas. There were some that practiced Southern customs, but there were others that held a rugged, western lifestyle on the ranches. The cultural Southwest extends all the way to around the 104 meridian to be generous. I know what you mean about El Paso, being that it is a border town. It is a culturally Southwestern city, but its state just so happens to be included in the Census regarded South.
I'll give you El Paso, but that's about it for true Southwestern culture. As soon as you cross into Hudspeth county there is a quantum cultural shift. All the Trans-Pecos really is, is just a unique geographical extreme of the South that extends into the basin and range desert region of North America that is typically associated with the American Southwest.
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Old 12-27-2013, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Hollywood, CA
1,576 posts, read 2,536,238 times
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It's Texas. No matter how many Texans talk about the Southern History of that state and how Southern East Texas is. There is a far stronger Hispanic/Mexican influence in that state compared to other Southern states. Especially once you get West of the 35 and South Texas. I lived in Central Texas for 3 years. And it doesn't feel as Southern as somewhere like Alabama or South Carolina. It just feels Texan, which is it's own thing. There's very little Southern culture in Austin and San Antonio compared to Dallas and Houston, and Fort Worth is borderline.

Look at Florida. Even with all the Transplants. The Whites in rural Central and South Florida are about as Southern as the one's in North Florida. And the Blacks throughout Florida are as Southern as it gets. South and West Texas have a negligible Southern Black population, and that makes the biggest difference.
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Who Cares, USA
2,343 posts, read 2,751,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipcat View Post
It's Texas. No matter how many Texans talk about the Southern History of that state and how Southern East Texas is. There is a far stronger Hispanic/Mexican influence in that state compared to other Southern states. Especially once you get West of the 35 and South Texas. I lived in Central Texas for 3 years. And it doesn't feel as Southern as somewhere like Alabama or South Carolina. It just feels Texan, which is it's own thing. There's very little Southern culture in Austin and San Antonio compared to Dallas and Houston, and Fort Worth is borderline.
The reason Texans talk about the Southern history of the state is because it has a history of BEING a Southern state. It has nothing to do with WANTING to be a Southern state. It just... is. It's a different kind of Southern from the DEEP South (ie. Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia), but it's still a Southern state. It was part of the confederacy. This isn't hard to research if it's actual facts you're looking for, and not just a bunch of C-D speculation and hot air. I know that I have absolutely ZERO personal stake in the matter, but the truth is the truth, and I do have a stake in the truth. No amount of Mexican influence changes that fact either. Should the French, Spanish, and Creole influence in Louisiana take anything away from it being Southern?

You're right that it doesn't feel "as Southern as somewhere like Alabama or South Carolina", because unlike those states, Texas is not in the DEEP South. Also, you could easily fit both of those states inside Texas and still have room to squeeze in Georgia and Mississippi. In other words, Texas is HUGE. Of course there are going to be more variations on the culture, weather, topography, and politics than your average Southern state.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that Austin and San Antonio have very little Southern culture compared to Houston and Dallas. That's just silly. Houston and Dallas are both big, diverse cities with more transplants from all over the nation and the world than either San Antonio or Austin. I'm guessing you didn't get out of central Texas too often during your 3 years living there.

And there's the I-35 thing again. I'll never understand why people think there's some massive cultural rift along that stretch of interstate. The only thing that changes from one side to the other is the topography, elevation, and some vegetation. And even then only slightly. The culture remains essentially unchanged all the way to somewhere just shy of El Paso.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:56 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
7,183 posts, read 16,268,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
I don't know where you're getting this idea that Austin and San Antonio have very little Southern culture compared to Houston and Dallas. That's just silly. Houston and Dallas are both big, diverse cities with more transplants from all over the nation and the world than either San Antonio or Austin. I'm guessing you didn't get out of central Texas too often during your 3 years living there.
It's just fact. San Antonio especially, as the de-facto capital of South Texas (which is really more Mexico than the USA), has very little Southern culture. Austin maybe a little more, but still miniscule when compared to DFW or Houston. No one would claim they have even a fraction of the southern culture of cities like Dallas or Houston -- both of which share a connection with East Texas, the only truly "Southern" part of Texas. The demographics alone will show you that. And transplants..? I take it you've never been to Austin.

Great handle though.
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Old 12-28-2013, 02:14 AM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,345 posts, read 55,148,798 times
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Originally Posted by nephi215 View Post
Delaware
Most definitely!
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