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Old 12-29-2013, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
7,183 posts, read 16,271,074 times
Reputation: 3474

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
Imagine if Austin annexed Bastrop, Dripping Springs, and Taylor. Then think about what that would do to the city's stats. Would it mean that central, or even near-central Austin would suddenly lose it's local flavor and feel like a different city all of a sudden? No, of course not. However, outsiders staring at pie charts are going to see a different picture.
Ah, annexation. ALL the major Texas cities annex far-flung areas. It is in no way unique to Houston. Austin has annexed 25 miles away to Lake Travis / NW communities, San Antonio has increased their city population significantly via annexation of outlying areas. If anything, SA has annexed at a GREATER rate than Houston -- indeed SA has annexed itself up to the 7th largest city in the USA (despite being approximately the same metro size as Austin).

Quote:
Anyway, the data I was asking you about had to do with the rate of transplant migration in Austin versus Dallas and Houston, as you were stating earlier that it's significantly higher in Austin. I'm not seeing anything in these links that covers that.
That is harder to see from charts, I'll grant you... but it's reflected in the data from the same source (although there are other sources). You could see it from the links I sent, by looking at the percentage gain in population of Austin (~6%) vs. Houston (~3) and then the <5 year old percentage (to compare percentage of gain from birthrate).

Or, you can see the hard numbers by looking at this data viewer:
Census Flows Mapper - Beta - Geography - US Census Bureau

It goes by county, so you'd have to compare Travis county to Harris. You could also do Williamson county vs. Harris, or Ft Bend, or whatever you feel you need to include. But it will show you the numbers coming in from out of state, abroad, etc. Take the net number, and compare it to the population (remember that Harris is 4X the population of Travis), and you'll see the rate of transplant migration is significantly higher in the Austin area.

Quote:
And to be fair, you did say that "Tex-Mex and Southern aren't the same". Maybe you meant something else, but I was only refuting by saying that "Tex-Mex" is just another strain of Southern culture.
I did indeed say that, and I'll stand by it. Tex-Mex is not a strain of Southern Culture. It is in no way a result of the existence of the South or Confederacy, nor does it share anything but a tertiary connection. It's a result of geography and population, which comes from sharing a 1200 mile border with another country. Attempting to apply a southern connection via the transitive property using a minority of the history of the "Tex" part just doesn't work. Texas was part of Mexico for a longer time than it was in the confederacy, and it was it's own country also for longer than the confederate states lasted.

Quote:
If the benchmark thing is the rule, and I have no choice but to follow it, then I'll definitely concede that Texas is far less Southern... but it's NOT the rule, and I don't have to follow it. It's just a very popular way of thinking about these things. I don't think that way.
Well, that's all I'm saying, really. That Texas is _less_ Southern, and that is what makes it (or Florida perhaps) the _least_ Southern states. I do believe you can look at it in terms of "degree". You seem to have no issue using "degrees" with the amount of Asian culture in Houston vs. SA or Austin, for example. How do you reconcile the ability for cities to have different degrees of certain culture, but not states? Seems like that would be an explanation worthy of Bob Lablow's law blog.

Quote:
But yes... let's just agree to disagree. We've hammered this thing to death.
Agreed. For my part in hammering this to death, I apologize.
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Old 12-29-2013, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,795 posts, read 36,172,094 times
Reputation: 63452
And yet, the hammering continues.

If I had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning...and in the evening...all over this world..."Texas is a unique, and uniquely southern, state!"
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:30 PM
 
Location: The Magnolia City
8,931 posts, read 11,802,907 times
Reputation: 4853
What I'll say is that Dallas, Houston, and Fort Worth certainly have more attributes of the stereotypical south than Austin or San Antonio. I don't think anyone will disagree with that.

Tex-Mex is a southern cuisine the same way that Louisiana Creole and Cajun are.
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:35 PM
 
83 posts, read 104,799 times
Reputation: 59
I wouldn't consider Texas part of the South. That is really more western.

Florida is mostly old retired yankees and the southern part is basically a Hispanic country.

Virginia the least southern state because it is geographically more to the north. lol
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Old 12-29-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Who Cares, USA
2,343 posts, read 2,752,033 times
Reputation: 2258
Quote:
Originally Posted by atxcio View Post
Ah, annexation. ALL the major Texas cities annex far-flung areas. It is in no way unique to Houston. Austin has annexed 25 miles away to Lake Travis / NW communities, San Antonio has increased their city population significantly via annexation of outlying areas. If anything, SA has annexed at a GREATER rate than Houston -- indeed SA has annexed itself up to the 7th largest city in the USA (despite being approximately the same metro size as Austin).
Austin = 298 sq. miles
Fort Worth = 340 sq. miles
Dallas = 341 sq. miles
S.A. = 461 sq. miles
Houston = 628 sq. miles

That's all I have to say about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atxcio View Post
I do believe you can look at it in terms of "degree". You seem to have no issue using "degrees" with the amount of Asian culture in Houston vs. SA or Austin, for example. How do you reconcile the ability for cities to have different degrees of certain culture, but not states? Seems like that would be an explanation worthy of Bob Lablow's law blog.


Well, that's been taken well enough out of context, and I'm really sick of explaining myself when I know it's just going to get taken out of context again.

I feel bad for having even added yet another "degree" to this silly debate, but here it is.
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Old 12-29-2013, 02:18 PM
 
56 posts, read 61,385 times
Reputation: 92
I wouldagree with those who say that Maryland is the least "southern" Southern state, except in my mind Maryland isn't southern (I live there!). You could say the Eastern Shore, Southern MD and some of Western MD is southern, but the majority of MD inhabitants, in the Balt/Wash metropolis, are more "northern." Yes, most of Maryland residents (easily 2/3) live in the DC/Baltimore area, which I call "Northern" or at least "Mid-Atlantic."

So, no, Maryland doesn't count -- it's too northern to even be marginally southern, and even its rural areas are in a way very similar to rural areas in southern Pennsylvania (near Harrisburg and Lancaster).

Florida is my pick. Only Northern Virginia is "northern"-ish and it only comprises about a third of the population of all of Virginia. The rest of Virginia is pretty clearly "Southern." Most of Florida's population lies in the Southern two-thirds of Florida, which is definitely not "southern."
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
18,633 posts, read 27,060,365 times
Reputation: 9577
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisvishr0 View Post

Florida is my pick. Only Northern Virginia is "northern"-ish and it only comprises about a third of the population of all of Virginia. The rest of Virginia is pretty clearly "Southern." Most of Florida's population lies in the Southern two-thirds of Florida, which is definitely not "southern."
So what exactly is Southern?
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Old 12-29-2013, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Terramaria
774 posts, read 841,779 times
Reputation: 910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
So what exactly is Southern?
Historically Southern regards to the migration patterns that originated with the settlement of Jamestown in 1607, just as Northern originates with the Quaker, Dutch, and New England settlements. This extends to slavery up to the Civil War and Jim Crow laws up until the 1960s. Since then traditional southern cultures have been seen as too backwards and instead supplanted by the New South culture, which really had its roots after the Civil War but became much more important with the invention of air conditioning, which in the 1960s became affordable for most which coincided with the rise of Civil Rights. That said, areas like Norther Virginia and the MD suburbs of DC are a unique cross between New South mentalities and general American suburbia. Its freeway development patterns in DC itself are more similar to Northeastern cities with many neighborhoods opposing freeways and promoting narrow roads with heavy congestion, along with some toll roads. The CSA South/Census South (alternatively including Missouri with its slavery/religion patterns) are completely different definitions. The states that permitted slavery that didn't secede are better described as "Diet South" and almost all are less southern than the former CSA states, though there are exceptions (most of Kentucky, far Southeastern Missouri, and southern West Virginia is more southern than Northern Virginia for example). But then you have the Baltimore area and northern Delaware which are less southern than parts of some traditional northern states, such as southern Indiana, southern Illinois, and far southwestern Pennsylvania. But by using the laws at the state level (slavery, Civil Rights) ultimately led to securing the classification of being southern. While the South remains a distinct region today, the exact geography has certainly changed.

So overall:

Census South= Delaware (Maryland's Somerset, Wicomico, Dorchester, Worcester (outside of the Ocean City area), St. Mary's, most of Calvert, and parts of Charles beat anything southern that Sussex county, DE offers, and originally was one of the Middle Colonies unlike Maryland. It borders two true Northeastern states, Pennsylvania and New Jersey unlike Maryland with just PA. IMO Delaware below the canal resembles Atlantic/Cumberland/Salem/Cape May counties in New Jersey just as much as it resembles the UPPER Maryland eastern shore counties with a strip of beach resorts, some small quaint towns, and produce fields where almost no tobacco, a traditional southern crop is grown. Sure it has a NASCAR track in Dover, but remember NASCAR is present in much of the Northeast now from the Poconos to Watkins Glen to New Hampshire. For all practical purposes Delaware should be a Mid-Atlantic state.

CSA South= Florida. NoVA is the only true unsouthern place in Virginia, and Florida has Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/Palm Beach, and Orlando/Tampa seem much less southern than Richmond/Hampton Roads ever offer. Florida outside of the North wasn't really settled until after the Civil War, and then really didn't boom until the 1960s with air conditioning and has more transplants than any other former CSA state. Meanwhile, Texas is geographically where the "S" on a compass needle would fall, the portion of the state that is seen as more southern is more heavily populated, and while getting a bit more left, still is more right-leaning than Florida or Virginia is. Cotton is an important crop over large parts of the state.
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Old 12-29-2013, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,099 posts, read 4,735,887 times
Reputation: 5374
I'd say Maryland and Delaware are not even southern at all.

I'd call Florida buuuuut West Virginia, I think, is the least southern without transplants. Northern WV is a lot like the Appalachian parts of Ohio, PA and NY. Southern WV is where you'd get more southern vibes.

This also depends on whether or not you consider WV a part of the south at all.
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:40 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
4,155 posts, read 4,731,477 times
Reputation: 4851
Maryland. It's below the M-D line, so it counts.
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