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Old 02-01-2014, 01:23 AM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
2,069 posts, read 2,199,368 times
Reputation: 1329

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
Texas and Oklahoma are southern. That's just the fact of it. I've been into Texas several times, I've also been to Virginia, Texas is far more like the deep south than Virginia.

Yes there are unique elements to the culture, but that does not make it non-southern. If a unique identity within the south makes a state un-southern, then there is no south.
I never said Texas and Oklahoma weren't Southern; I said that I considered both the least southern of all the southern states (if Maryland and Delaware are excluded, apparently).

As for Texas being more deep south than Virginia, that is just blatantly false; Texas has ENTIRE swaths of land DEVOID of Southern culture, such as Pecos Texas, South Texas, the Panhandle, and even parts of West Texas. In contrast, nowhere in Virginia is devoid of Southern culture, not even NOVA. The southern culture that is in Texas bears no resemblance to the "Deep South;" rather, it is a distinctly Texan culture, a mix of Southern traditions, Western ideals, and Hispanic influence. Traces of this can even be seen in the Piney Woods, regarded as the most Southern area in all of Texas. This is why Texas, as a whole, is regarded as the Western South; it is the south but with southwestern ideals and influence, and is on the frontier side of things.

Please tell me if you can find landscapes like this in a "Deep South" state:

Big Bend National Park, TX
http://wikitravel.org/upload/shared/...ional_Tree.jpg
http://davelarsonstudio.com/wordpres...t-Davis-54.jpg

Or liberal havens like this:
Austin, TX
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...10-03-29-b.JPG

Or deep, historical Mexican enclaves that predate the Southerness of the state:
San Antonio, TX
http://operationbarnabas.org/files/2.../riverwalk.jpg

El Paso, TX
http://james-mcwilliams.com/wp-conte...inter_2012.jpg

Or advanced, mighty, ultra-diverse global powers either big on the information industry:
Dallas, TX
http://kannoninthemorningi93.files.w...texmanson2.jpg

Or is the futuristic, energy dynamo of the nation, where over 90 languages are spoken:
Houston, TX
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge...0/SKDT1059.jpg

Last edited by Yn0hTnA; 02-01-2014 at 01:51 AM..
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:32 AM
 
29,940 posts, read 27,375,616 times
Reputation: 18470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
I never said Texas and Oklahoma weren't Southern; I said that I considered both the least southern of all the southern states (if Maryland and Delaware are excluded, apparently).

As for Texas being more deep south than Virginia, that is just blatantly false; Texas has ENTIRE swaths of land DEVOID of Southern culture, such as Pecos Texas, South Texas, the Panhandle, and even parts of West Texas. In contrast, nowhere in Virginia is devoid of Southern culture, not even NOVA. The southern culture that is in Texas bears no resemblance to the "Deep South;" rather, it is a distinctly Texan culture, a mix of Southern traditions, Western ideals, and Hispanic influence. Traces of this can even be seen in the Piney Woods, regarded as the most Southern area in all of Texas. This is why Texas, as a whole, is regarded as the Western South; it is the south but with southwestern ideals and influence, and is on the frontier side of things.

Please tell me if you can find landscapes like this in a "Deep South" state:

Big Bend National Park, TX
http://wikitravel.org/upload/shared/...ional_Tree.jpg
http://davelarsonstudio.com/wordpres...t-Davis-54.jpg

Or liberal havens like this:
Austin, TX
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...10-03-29-b.JPG

Or deep, historical Mexican enclaves that predate the Southerness of the state:
San Antonio, TX
http://operationbarnabas.org/files/2.../riverwalk.jpg

El Paso, TX
http://james-mcwilliams.com/wp-conte...inter_2012.jpg

Or advanced, mighty, ultra-diverse global powers either big on the information industry:
Dallas, TX
http://kannoninthemorningi93.files.w...texmanson2.jpg

Or is the futuristic, energy dynamo of the nation, where over 90 languages are spoken:
Houston, TX
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-ge...0/SKDT1059.jpg
At least one part of Texas, East Texas, can be considered Deep South. But no part of Virginia is in the Deep South, although the Tidewater region exhibits some Deep Southern characteristics.
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Old 02-01-2014, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Southern Hip Hop originated in Houston, Texas. And they boast proudly about that. Kinda hard to say that no place in Texas is "Deep South."


They Don't Know (Featuring Bun B) (video) Amended Album - YouTube

I've had friends from Texas tell me that the Carolinas weren't even part of the "true" South. Apparently, they know nothing about "drank" and "syzurp" down there.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:03 PM
 
29,940 posts, read 27,375,616 times
Reputation: 18470
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I've had friends from Texas tell me that the Carolinas weren't even part of the "true" South. Apparently, they know nothing about "drank" and "syzurp" down there.
That's interesting; you're MUCH more likely to hear the reverse. How can they think the Carolinas aren't part of the "true South" when they were among the original colonies and early players in the slave trade, especially SC?
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
That's interesting; you're MUCH more likely to hear the reverse. How can they think the Carolinas aren't part of the "true South" when they were among the original colonies and early players in the slave trade, especially SC?
Well, Virginia was one of the oldest colonies and also a major player in the slave trade. I don't know why they have that view, but some do.

I'm not so sure if any of these places are "less" southern or just "different" southern. I recall reading a quote that went something like "There's the South of Episcopalians, horses and whiskey and the South of fields and mules." Virginia, to me, is very much a southern state, but they've always viewed themselves as the "educated" southerners in the manner of Thomas Jefferson. That's why I suppose they have the "Cavalier" as their mascot as opposed to a "Rebel" or "Bulldog."

Charlottesville, VA and Starkville, MS are both southern. Just two different types of southern.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:50 PM
 
6,611 posts, read 6,927,632 times
Reputation: 4077
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Well, Virginia was one of the oldest colonies and also a major player in the slave trade. I don't know why they have that view, but some do.

I'm not so sure if any of these places are "less" southern or just "different" southern. I recall reading a quote that went something like "There's the South of Episcopalians, horses and whiskey and the South of fields and mules." Virginia, to me, is very much a southern state, but they've always viewed themselves as the "educated" southerners in the manner of Thomas Jefferson. That's why I suppose they have the "Cavalier" as their mascot as opposed to a "Rebel" or "Bulldog."

Charlottesville, VA and Starkville, MS are both southern. Just two different types of southern.
I totally agree.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,100 posts, read 4,735,887 times
Reputation: 5374
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Well, Virginia was one of the oldest colonies and also a major player in the slave trade. I don't know why they have that view, but some do.

I'm not so sure if any of these places are "less" southern or just "different" southern. I recall reading a quote that went something like "There's the South of Episcopalians, horses and whiskey and the South of fields and mules." Virginia, to me, is very much a southern state, but they've always viewed themselves as the "educated" southerners in the manner of Thomas Jefferson. That's why I suppose they have the "Cavalier" as their mascot as opposed to a "Rebel" or "Bulldog."

Charlottesville, VA and Starkville, MS are both southern. Just two different types of southern.
Well said!
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:29 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,115,139 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Southern Hip Hop originated in Houston, Texas. And they boast proudly about that. Kinda hard to say that no place in Texas is "Deep South."

I've had friends from Texas tell me that the Carolinas weren't even part of the "true" South. Apparently, they know nothing about "drank" and "syzurp" down there.
Great post, BajanYankee!

I would not be one of those Texans, but I can say with certainty that there are "Deep South purists" -- some being distant kin and close friends -- who do exclude South Carolina and Louisiana from the "true South." Personally, I think that is nuttier than a pecan pie, but hey, that is the way some of those folks think! God bless 'em. LOL

But it all really goes back to that the definition of "The South", unlike -- or at least to a much lesser extent -than the definition of the "southeast" -- is extremely subjective. That is to say, most people would probably agree that the "Southeast" are those either east of the Mississippi River, and south of the Ohio and Potomac River, and can legitimately stretch to those east of Texas and Oklahoma (i.e. Louisiana and Arkansas).

On the other hand, there are just so many criteria to consider when defining "The South", that it really boils down to subjectivity and the priority any one individual puts on any of the particular criteria. Literally dozens of defintions can -- and do -- exist.

Now, one of my personal favorites -- if such terms can be used -- is where people consider themselves to live in the South and think of themselves as Southerners. I have posted that 7 year survey countless times before (and it can be found in an earlier post) -- so won't do so now -- but it comes down to the 11 Old Confederate States, plus Kentucky and Oklahoma...with West Virginia on the fence.

Anyway, so far as Texas goes? What seems to be (at least IMHO), is that all too many do not understand/grasp the fact that there is -- culturally/historically speaking two totally different "Southwests". One is New Mexico and Arizona, the other is Texas and Oklahoma. This article from Wiki (which provides sources) sums it up pretty well (especially, see Origins of the Term and Historical Variations).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southw..._United_States

Last edited by TexasReb; 02-01-2014 at 01:53 PM..
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:42 PM
 
29,940 posts, read 27,375,616 times
Reputation: 18470
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
I would not be one of those Texans, but I can say with certainty that there are "Deep South purists" -- some being distant kin and close friends -- who do exclude South Carolina and Louisiana from the "true South."
This is mind-boggling to me, especially SC. I can somewhat see why they would say this about Louisiana due to the Creole and Cajun influences (although they are still Southernized cultural influences it seems), but what's the reasoning behind SC? It was the first state to secede, it was where the Civil War started, it had among the most slaves per capita of any other Southern state, and it is Strom Thurmond's home. We're known for all the traditional Southern cuisine staples and are home to various styles of BBQ. Now I don't expect folks from Texas to know ALL of this since the state is kinda far removed, but enough basic facts should be common knowledge to know that, without a doubt, SC is the true South--no ifs, ands, or buts.
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Old 02-01-2014, 03:09 PM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
2,069 posts, read 2,199,368 times
Reputation: 1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Southern Hip Hop originated in Houston, Texas. And they boast proudly about that. Kinda hard to say that no place in Texas is "Deep South."


They Don't Know (Featuring Bun B) (video) Amended Album - YouTube

I've had friends from Texas tell me that the Carolinas weren't even part of the "true" South. Apparently, they know nothing about "drank" and "syzurp" down there.
Like I said, Texas as a whole is the "Western South;" The southern culture blended with a frontier western essence, and with established hispanic influence. This culture can be seen in the Texas Triangle cities from Dallas to Austin to Houston to San Antonio. The southern culture that is in Texas isn't the Deep South (with the exception of the Piney Woods area in Deep East Texas, and even that is debatable).

Houston has a southern hip hop culture, and that is true; but that is only one of the numerous cultures that polymerize to make up the unique culture of Houston.

Texas has ENTIRE swaths of land DEVOID of ANY southern culture (Pecos Texas, South Texas, etc), and the areas that do have southern culture have said culture with a western twist. Because of that, you can't say that everywhere in Texas is the deep South.

Your friends are mistaken, the Carolinas are more Southern than Texas by a long shot; they had the antebellum culture Texas lacked.

Let me know if you can find landscapes like this in the Deep South:
http://www.desertusa.com/mag09/jun09...o-Infinity.jpg
http://www.texasescapes.com/TRIPS/Im...05DougBaum.jpg
http://www.haunsgowest.com/wp-conten...un-800x400.jpg
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