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Old 07-10-2013, 01:44 AM
 
13,408 posts, read 6,692,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryFisher View Post
Oklahoma is not a Southern state.
Yes it is. and red-neck as hell.

My vote is Texas.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:15 AM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archguy View Post

Of course, even as I was doing it I found that it needed improvement.
It came out looking like "Deep South" or "Gulf Coast States".

For one thing, certain places like New Orleans are sui generis--unique unto themselves.
I'd say N.O. isn't southern and isn't not southern!

And any map like this can't account for anomalies (generally urban) like Charlotte which isn't half as southern as it was a generation or two ago. Some N.C. natives maintain that the Raleigh suburb of 'Cary' is an acronym for "Concentrated Area of Relocated Yankees".

The shading for 'southern-ness' needs to extend further down into Florida. Etc etc.

Is Dallas southern? A lot of people there seem to think so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: I revised it. Is this any better? My vote is for Florida anyway, with Virginia 2nd.

Texas is its own country near as I can tell
I like this heat map, but a few things I disagree with on it. All of Arkansas is southern, more of Missouri is southern and more of Oklahoma is southern. The "southerness" seems to end at the KY/TN line but I believe much more of Kentucky is southern than this map depicts. In fact most Kentucky residence would declare themselves to be southerners. This is just my opinion obviously and many people have many different ideas on what is southern. Ive heard those jokes how people on the Gulf coast say anyone who lives north of I-10 is a yankee lol.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:46 AM
 
Location: The Old Dominion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
I like this heat map, but a few things I disagree with on it. All of Arkansas is southern, more of Missouri is southern and more of Oklahoma is southern. The "southerness" seems to end at the KY/TN line but I believe much more of Kentucky is southern than this map depicts. In fact most Kentucky residence would declare themselves to be southerners. This is just my opinion obviously and many people have many different ideas on what is southern. Ive heard those jokes how people on the Gulf coast say anyone who lives north of I-10 is a yankee lol.
Thanks, I will revise this once I have more and better information like yours. I agree that Arkansas is southern but I don't have a clue about Missouri. I always thought Oklahoma was western/midwestern/plains and the people I have known from OK do not consider themselves southern although as jencam says they are often very rednecky. That's not the same as southern in my book (people are often one without being the other). Kentucky I also don't know much about. More ideas/opinions welcome!
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:43 AM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archguy View Post
Thanks, I will revise this once I have more and better information like yours. I agree that Arkansas is southern but I don't have a clue about Missouri. I always thought Oklahoma was western/midwestern/plains and the people I have known from OK do not consider themselves southern although as jencam says they are often very rednecky. That's not the same as southern in my book (people are often one without being the other). Kentucky I also don't know much about. More ideas/opinions welcome!
Oklahoma is not the Midwest, certainly not in the historical/cultural sense or even geographical sense (although it borders the Midwest to the North (Kansas/Missouri). Culturally, Oklahoma is overtly Southern with clear doses of Western mixed in. Most Okies I know will call Oklahoma Southwestern as in SOUTHwestern, not SouthWESTERN (NM/AZ) or Southern Plains works too (which helps culturally, but MUCH of Oklahoma is not the "Plains" in the topographical sense.)

Whatever region you place Arkansas/Texas in, that is where you would include Oklahoma as AR/TX are culturally the most akin to Okie culture. If you ask many folks from Tejas they consider Oklahomans their uneducated cousins. Arkies, to some extent, consider Okies a western extension of their own state (Oklahoma, in fact, at one time was Arkansaw Territory)....like one of my good friends from Arkansas stated, "Oklahomans/Arkansans are kinda like Texas Jr." Whether true/untrue that is the perception of many.

Western-South is what many will utilize to draw distinction from the Southeast (Deep South) while clearly maintaining the obvious cultural affinity of Oklahoma/Arkansas/Texas with other Southern states.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Sunbelt
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That's a really great map, Archguy! I would include more of Oklahoma and the interior of Florida outside of Orlando. It's mostly the coasts that are less Southern; anything around Lake Okeechobee is still very Southern.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:25 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,112,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archguy View Post
Thanks, I will revise this once I have more and better information like yours. I agree that Arkansas is southern but I don't have a clue about Missouri. I always thought Oklahoma was western/midwestern/plains and the people I have known from OK do not consider themselves southern although as jencam says they are often very rednecky. That's not the same as southern in my book (people are often one without being the other). Kentucky I also don't know much about. More ideas/opinions welcome!
Not quite true. According to the most extensive self-identification survey ever done, most Oklahomans do indeed consider themselves to live in the South and think of themselves as Southerners. I have posted this before, but here it is again -- along with news clips -- for those who have not seen it:

************************************************** ***********

WHERE IS THE SOUTH?

The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.

Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.

It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.

--John Shelton Reed

Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

***********
Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)

**********

CHAPEL HILL Ask even educated Americans what states form "the South," and youre likely to get 100 different answers. Almost everyone will agree on Deep South states -- except maybe Florida -- but which border states belong and which dont can be endlessly debated.

Now, the Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, provides strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia dont belong anymore, if they ever did.

Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999 show, for example, that only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South.

Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.

"We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureaus South, which doesnt make sense."

The U.S. Census Bureau includes Delaware, D.C., Maryland and West Virginia in its definition.

"Clearly some parts of Texas arent Southern whatever you mean by that -- and some parts of Maryland are," Reed said. "But sometimes you need to say what the Southern states are, and this kind of information can help you decide. Our next step is to look inside individual states like Texas, break the data down by county, and say, for example, where between Beaumont and El Paso people stop telling you that youre in the South."

A report on the findings, produced by UNC-CHs Institute for Research in Social Science, will appear in the June issue of the journal "Southern Cultures." Reed, who directs the institute, says the results should interest many people including survey, marketing and census researchers.

"Personally, I think they ought to be interesting too to ordinary folk who are curious about where people stop telling you youre in the South as youre travelling west or north," he said. "Where that is has been kind of hard to say sometimes."

Perhaps surprisingly, 11 percent of people in Utah, 10 percent in Indiana and slighter fewer people in Illinois, Ohio, Arizona and Michigan claim to be Southerners.

"Thats because in the early part of this century millions of people left the South, and their migration was one of the great migrations not just in American history, but in world history," Reed said. "Their children may not think of themselves as Southern, but they still do."

The UNC-CH sociologist said he was surprised that 51 percent of Floridians describe themselves as Southerners even though 90 percent know their community is in the South.

"Florida is the only state in lower 48 where most people living there werent born there," he said. "In fact, most of them werent born in the South, much less in Florida."

Because of the Souths growing economy, only between 90 and 80 percent of residents of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia and the Carolinas said they are Southerners, the surveys showed.

"If you want to define the South as where people say it is, now we have a better sense of it," Reed said. "For the most part, it confirms what I already suspected, which is why I'm glad to see it. This work shows something we wanted to show, but haven't been able to before."

************************************************** **

Anyway, while your map was definitely an interesting one and you obviously put some time into it, I would disagree with a few of your northern and certainly western, boundaries. I hasten to add though it certainly does, I think, give an impressive guide as to topographical deliniations of what the South is supposed to look like.

There will never be any absolute consensus on what states/areas are Southern. Hell, else there would be so many articles, books, debates, arguments, etc, about it all! LOL Hell again, For one thing, to take a regression, there is not even any concise agreement on exactly what characteristics/traits define the South at all. As it is, there are literally dozens if not hundreds of them!

But anyway, I agree with Dr. Reed (who headed to study pasted above), that one of the best definitions of the South is where a majority of people say they live in the South and consider themselves Southerners. And in those instances, when broken down into localized areas, even most West Texans answer in the affirmative to both questions.

That might be (IMHO) as good as it will ever get...

Last edited by TexasReb; 07-10-2013 at 02:42 PM..
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:19 PM
 
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Yeah that heat map needs all of Kentucky except the three counties across from Cincinnati, where the culture has been diluted by the Midwestern metropolis, and they actually are a humid continental climate there, whereas the rest of the commonwealth is the northern terminus of the humid subtropical climate zone. Kentucky accents are upland south, and while less present in more cosmopolitan areas, the multi-generational natives and rural areas are dominated by them. They also vary from east to west, with the further west becoming less of a twang and more of a drawl. The southern Ohio river (from about Owensboro), Green, Cumberland, Tennessee, and Mississippi rivers, and their immediate tributaries, host great numbers of cypress and tupelo swamps (though much less now than prior to statehood). The Jackson Purchase was and still is Kentucky's only commercially viable area for cotton farms, but much of the southern and central counties' farms produced personal cotton patches. I live in southern Kentucky, a land of bright red clay and more Southern species of flora and fauna. The Commonwealth was also represented by the central star on the Confederate flag, and while obviously torn between sides during the war, most of our Unionists fought to preserve the country because Kentucky was the auction ground for slaves and the market between the South and North. Severing such strong economic footing was something our legislature could not do, even though our governor favored state's rights. We are not the deep south, though western Kentucky just needs alligators and Spanish moss to look so. However were also not the midwest, as you would see once you cross the hills that frame the northern bank of the Ohio. There's a blend of cultures here, because we are on the border, but we are in the upper south with a foot in the Mid-South, and proud of it.
On a side note I believe eastern Oklahoma top to bottom is very Southern, but it tapers out to the west
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:50 AM
 
Location: West Tennessee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckessee View Post
Yeah that heat map needs all of Kentucky except the three counties across from Cincinnati, where the culture has been diluted by the Midwestern metropolis, and they actually are a humid continental climate there, whereas the rest of the commonwealth is the northern terminus of the humid subtropical climate zone. Kentucky accents are upland south, and while less present in more cosmopolitan areas, the multi-generational natives and rural areas are dominated by them. They also vary from east to west, with the further west becoming less of a twang and more of a drawl. The southern Ohio river (from about Owensboro), Green, Cumberland, Tennessee, and Mississippi rivers, and their immediate tributaries, host great numbers of cypress and tupelo swamps (though much less now than prior to statehood). The Jackson Purchase was and still is Kentucky's only commercially viable area for cotton farms, but much of the southern and central counties' farms produced personal cotton patches. I live in southern Kentucky, a land of bright red clay and more Southern species of flora and fauna. The Commonwealth was also represented by the central star on the Confederate flag, and while obviously torn between sides during the war, most of our Unionists fought to preserve the country because Kentucky was the auction ground for slaves and the market between the South and North. Severing such strong economic footing was something our legislature could not do, even though our governor favored state's rights. We are not the deep south, though western Kentucky just needs alligators and Spanish moss to look so. However were also not the midwest, as you would see once you cross the hills that frame the northern bank of the Ohio. There's a blend of cultures here, because we are on the border, but we are in the upper south with a foot in the Mid-South, and proud of it.
On a side note I believe eastern Oklahoma top to bottom is very Southern, but it tapers out to the west
Yep, good post.
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:02 AM
 
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May be a little ranting, but Archguy said he didn't know much about Kentucky, so I just wanted to share some info. I've only been to Oklahoma once, to Tahlequah, and that was neat for me since I have 2 great grandmothers that were Cherokee, and that's the capital of the Cherokee Nation. It seemed to be a lot like Kentucky and Tennessee, with oak/hickory covered hills and lakes with cypress in the lowest spots, but the trees at least on our drive seemed shorter and scraggly, due to what I'm guessing is prolonged exposure to some of the most extreme weather our country sees. The non-native Americans seemed like typical Southerners, upland south, while I hear the Little Dixie area, like around Broken Bow, is more deep south, and even has dwarf palmettos.
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Old 07-11-2013, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Broward County Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnewberry22 View Post
We've seen a ton of threads on the most southern or the most authentic southern state in the US....Which of the southern states is the least culturally southern?
Florida. Miami. South Florida does not sound (accents) and feel (people) southern at all.
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