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Old 07-14-2018, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
18,638 posts, read 27,069,277 times
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How in the world is Oklahoma shaded but not Texas?
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:22 PM
 
5,859 posts, read 14,053,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
If Detroit doesn't feel Northern, then what does it feel like? Nobody in their right mind would mistake Detroit for a Southern city just because it is majority Black which is what you appear to be implying. Same goes for other majority/near majority Black Northern cities like St. Louis, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Newark, etc.
I'm looking at these cities from a historical perspective. Prior to the 1960s, Miami was very much a Southern city, much like Charlotte, Birmingham, NOLA, etc. The politics were Southern, the culture was pre-civil rights Southern. Jim Crow was the law of the land there. It was transformed when more Northerners, people from the Caribbean islands, and South Americans relocated to the city. Similarly, Detroit was was a typical Northern city similar to Chicago, St. Louis, Philadelphia, etc. with a very diverse population with large groups of ethnic whites, old-school Yankees, European immigrants, blacks, Appalachian whites, etc. It transformed with the rapid exodus of whites in the latter part of the 20th century to a city whose population, politicians, leadership and institutions are now predominately African American (i.e., Southern culture).
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:51 AM
BMI
 
Location: Ontario
7,265 posts, read 4,506,751 times
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Not sure but, other than Florida, Iíd say Virginia.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:11 AM
 
2,366 posts, read 444,243 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around View Post
I'm looking at these cities from a historical perspective. Prior to the 1960s, Miami was very much a Southern city, much like Charlotte, Birmingham, NOLA, etc. The politics were Southern, the culture was pre-civil rights Southern. Jim Crow was the law of the land there. It was transformed when more Northerners, people from the Caribbean islands, and South Americans relocated to the city. Similarly, Detroit was was a typical Northern city similar to Chicago, St. Louis, Philadelphia, etc. with a very diverse population with large groups of ethnic whites, old-school Yankees, European immigrants, blacks, Appalachian whites, etc. It transformed with the rapid exodus of whites in the latter part of the 20th century to a city whose population, politicians, leadership and institutions are now predominately African American (i.e., Southern culture).
To be fair to Miami, Jim Crow was mandated as a part of the Florida constitution. Even if Miami were 100% made up of 'northerners' back in the day - it would have Jim Crow by virtue of being in Florida.

Miami's history is complex. It's a very new city - established after the civil war by northern entrepreneurs. A lot of southerners, bahamians, and northerners inhabited Miami from the get go. It's not like some cities that were gradually northernized through transplantation - Miami's history has always at best been mixed.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:10 AM
 
29,946 posts, read 27,396,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around View Post
Similarly, Detroit was was a typical Northern city similar to Chicago, St. Louis, Philadelphia, etc. with a very diverse population with large groups of ethnic whites, old-school Yankees, European immigrants, blacks, Appalachian whites, etc. It transformed with the rapid exodus of whites in the latter part of the 20th century to a city whose population, politicians, leadership and institutions are now predominately African American (i.e., Southern culture).
Several other Northern cities became predominantly Black in the latter part of the 20th century due to a whole host of factors that lead to massive White flight. Despite this, all of those cities feel pretty Northern. Nobody is going to mistake Detroit for Birmingham or Atlanta simply due to demographics and politics.
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Old 07-15-2018, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,583 posts, read 4,008,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by As Above So Below... View Post
The crux of the argument that the parties have always been the same is that the abolition of slavery, womens suffrage, desegregation, etc. were conservative causes.

Whats needed to defeat that argument? A dictionary.

The definition of the word conservative is: "holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics or religion."

The definition of the word liberal is: "open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values."

Enough said.
That's not the definition of conservative and liberal, at least in the political sense. The definitions of conservative and liberal in a political sense are tied to specific stances on issues.

I have never stated both parties are exactly the same, especially the Democratic party. My point has been the two parties did not switch platforms in the 1960s.

My larger point is that it is not accurate to say the more conservative Republican areas of the south are the 'most Southern'. The areas of the south that first flipped to majority GOP had more transplants from other areas. The majority of the segregationists were fiscal liberals so any area of the south with more fiscal liberals is more similar to the old south than areas that are more fiscally conservative.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 07-15-2018 at 02:56 PM..
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:49 PM
 
18 posts, read 7,751 times
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Default The South

This is such a great topic. Right off the bat Iíd remove Delaware and Maryland. They may have some areas that are sort of Southern, but these arenít Southern states. WV is transitional, but quite arguably Southern in an Appalachian way. Texas is itís own region really with Southern and Southwestern characteristics. Letís talk about Florida now because itís very much in the South and many are commenting on it. I live in Jacksonville, FL and am from Atlanta. Jacksonville is like Atlanta in that itís Southern historically and retains much of that culture, but also has a lot of transplants not from FL or the South. The area around Jacksonville gets more Southern, except on the coast to the south. Thereís an interesting dichotomy where as you head south, areas on the coast are more like retiree areas or vacation destinations like St Augustine, Palm Coast, Daytona Beach, etc whereas the inland areas in the same counties feel more Southern or Old Florida as people say. This scenario seems to play out in much of the state. I donít think there are many areas that arenít Southern at all. Every county surely contains elements of the culture. I donít think you can generalize any state as being the least Southern. I think you have to look at it by municipality or county and also demographically because certain groups have retained the culture better.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:18 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
356 posts, read 109,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcmoney View Post
This is such a great topic. Right off the bat Iíd remove Delaware and Maryland. They may have some areas that are sort of Southern, but these arenít Southern states. WV is transitional, but quite arguably Southern in an Appalachian way. Texas is itís own region really with Southern and Southwestern characteristics. Letís talk about Florida now because itís very much in the South and many are commenting on it. I live in Jacksonville, FL and am from Atlanta. Jacksonville is like Atlanta in that itís Southern historically and retains much of that culture, but also has a lot of transplants not from FL or the South. The area around Jacksonville gets more Southern, except on the coast to the south. Thereís an interesting dichotomy where as you head south, areas on the coast are more like retiree areas or vacation destinations like St Augustine, Palm Coast, Daytona Beach, etc whereas the inland areas in the same counties feel more Southern or Old Florida as people say. This scenario seems to play out in much of the state. I donít think there are many areas that arenít Southern at all. Every county surely contains elements of the culture. I donít think you can generalize any state as being the least Southern. I think you have to look at it by municipality or county and also demographically because certain groups have retained the culture better.
Maryland is also historically southern, it was a the original south during the colonial period. It started to become northern when the civil war took place.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:41 PM
 
Location: BMORE!
7,746 posts, read 6,149,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwalker96 View Post
Maryland is also historically southern, it was a the original south during the colonial period. It started to become northern when the civil war took place.
It's still southern to this day. The DC area may be less southern, but Baltimore and the rest of MD is still very southern.
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Richmond, VA
562 posts, read 540,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwalker96 View Post
Maryland is also historically southern, it was a the original south during the colonial period. It started to become northern when the civil war took place.
No, it didn't. It was still southern then, and was a Jim Crow state right up to the Civil Rights movement. It started to lose hallmarks of southern character in the post WWII era, with the loss of tobacco farms and the increasing importance of government contracting and the military industrial complex that affected the entire region. As the historically southern state (turned blue "Mid-Atlantic" state) closest to the classic Northeast, Maryland was also first to have the kinds of postwar transplants with more progressive politics, ideas, and northern ties capable of initiating a shift. But Western Maryland is still very much a mountain south type area.
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