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Old 08-08-2013, 08:11 AM
 
Location: New York City
4,035 posts, read 10,272,063 times
Reputation: 3753

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It is true that taking transit in Seattle, Portland and Minneapolis is a middle- and even upper-middle-class thing to do. It’s seen as an alternative to driving and many people who take transit also have cars. In other cities, only the poor take transit—it effectively means you can’t afford a car.
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX and wherever planes fly
1,907 posts, read 3,216,986 times
Reputation: 2128
^This! It's green it's the same reason that the western states were and are where mass recycling took hold in a big way. Why the first electric and hybrid vehicles were sold, and the reason why Tesla opened up shop there and not anywhere else. It's just the mindset out that way. I for one love it! After traveling to NYC and Chicago and several other cities when I sat on the light rail in Seattle last summer and zoomed to the city from SeaTac International I thought that one could eat right off of the floor on that thing! Everyone was on there business types, families, teens, elderly, wealthy, not so wealthy, black white and everything in between. I wish the same could be said of more big cities
.
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,695 posts, read 28,363,818 times
Reputation: 35862
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
It is true that taking transit in Seattle, Portland and Minneapolis is a middle- and even upper-middle-class thing to do. It’s seen as an alternative to driving and many people who take transit also have cars. In other cities, only the poor take transit—it effectively means you can’t afford a car.
This is true. Speaking as one who lives in one of these cities, I think those upper-middle-class people use public transportation do so for the morning and evening commute to work and their beloved cars for everything else.

Still others recycle and claim to be "green," also state they would not be caught dead on public transportation with all the ", nasty, odd, smelly" people. Not being a car owner myself, I hear this comment many times when people of middle class as well as upper ask me how can I stand to get around solely by public transportation.

As in other cities we still have our poor, elderly, disabled and those who really do choose to live car-less who take public transportation out of necessity.Then you have the very small minority who take it out of choice.

I don't know how it is in the Sunbelt because I have never lived there but here in the PNW and the West Coast people do love there cars and public transportation is used but as you say, as an alternative.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:32 PM
 
3,463 posts, read 5,642,327 times
Reputation: 7218
The parts of the civilized world that place a high value on quality of life have determined worshipping cars is not in their best interest. A very efficient mass transit system is. Coincidentally, the states here in the US mentioned by the OP are our more progressive and forward thinking areas. They get it . . .
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:52 PM
 
9,091 posts, read 19,172,292 times
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Wow ... all sorts of overthinking and moral judgements based on transit choices .... a question on why it's looked down on in one area turns into a festival of looking down on the places that don't utilize it as much, which is interesting in it's own right.

First and foremost, the cities are built completely different.

I lived in the Twin Cities right before moving to Phoenix. I did not have a car at all in MN or for my first 9 months in Phoenix. The layout of the city and availability of transit made it much more reasonable to have transit in MN.

A large number of jobs are located in Mpls or St. Paul. There are transport options to get you in/out of those areas. Parking is a big expense as well. I was able to find work in both cities. For Mpls it was a direct bus from Brooklyn Park and St. Paul required a connection. I've used light rail to go into Mpls for events from the Eagan area. There were a couple jobs I interviewed for that were in the suburban "campus" environments that would have been very difficult to get to via public transit though.

In phoenix the bus system basically runs on a grid. We have individual streets out here that would stretch from Brooklyn Park to Apple Valley. You basically take a bus on a surface street and run e/w until you hit the N/S coordinate and if you are lucky that is all you have to do. You may need a 3rd transfer though to go e/w again pending the routes.

That connection was very inconsistent, the schedules were never kept and it would frequently take a solid 90 minutes to commute what would be a 20-30 minute drive. Everything in Phoenix is spread out including employment. Also parking for the most part is either free or cheap. The road system is good and while traffic can back up it isn't as bad as some other major metros. There really is very little incentive to take public transport.

Seattle was a nightmare for driving though and I found public transport to be pretty good in moving around. I remember being at a meeting in Redmond where we were going to leave and head to the Ms game. You have to cross Lake Washington and the traffic was nuts. That is your option though.

In Phoenix there aren't that many natural obstacles. A couple mountains here and there, but for the most part big wide freeways and surface streets that carry 2-3 lanes in each direction. If there is a wreck on the freeway, I just take a surface street home and avoid it.

There is a growing segment that is starting to be served by public transport. The light rail has found a good market. There are express buses to downtown from many suburban areas which are filled up with the same white collar workers you find in other cities and work great if you actually work downtown.

Otherwise, it makes more sense to just drive.
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Old 08-08-2013, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,695 posts, read 28,363,818 times
Reputation: 35862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Wow ... all sorts of overthinking and moral judgements based on transit choices .... a question on why it's looked down on in one area turns into a festival of looking down on the places that don't utilize it as much, which is interesting in it's own right.

First and foremost, the cities are built completely different.

I lived in the Twin Cities right before moving to Phoenix. I did not have a car at all in MN or for my first 9 months in Phoenix. The layout of the city and availability of transit made it much more reasonable to have transit in MN.

A large number of jobs are located in Mpls or St. Paul. There are transport options to get you in/out of those areas. Parking is a big expense as well. I was able to find work in both cities. For Mpls it was a direct bus from Brooklyn Park and St. Paul required a connection. I've used light rail to go into Mpls for events from the Eagan area. There were a couple jobs I interviewed for that were in the suburban "campus" environments that would have been very difficult to get to via public transit though.

In phoenix the bus system basically runs on a grid. We have individual streets out here that would stretch from Brooklyn Park to Apple Valley. You basically take a bus on a surface street and run e/w until you hit the N/S coordinate and if you are lucky that is all you have to do. You may need a 3rd transfer though to go e/w again pending the routes.

That connection was very inconsistent, the schedules were never kept and it would frequently take a solid 90 minutes to commute what would be a 20-30 minute drive. Everything in Phoenix is spread out including employment. Also parking for the most part is either free or cheap. The road system is good and while traffic can back up it isn't as bad as some other major metros. There really is very little incentive to take public transport.

Seattle was a nightmare for driving though and I found public transport to be pretty good in moving around. I remember being at a meeting in Redmond where we were going to leave and head to the Ms game. You have to cross Lake Washington and the traffic was nuts. That is your option though.

In Phoenix there aren't that many natural obstacles. A couple mountains here and there, but for the most part big wide freeways and surface streets that carry 2-3 lanes in each direction. If there is a wreck on the freeway, I just take a surface street home and avoid it.

There is a growing segment that is starting to be served by public transport. The light rail has found a good market. There are express buses to downtown from many suburban areas which are filled up with the same white collar workers you find in other cities and work great if you actually work downtown.

Otherwise, it makes more sense to just drive.
I think a lot of people have misconceptions about this regarding cities in which they do not live.
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:24 PM
 
Location: St Simons Island, GA
23,389 posts, read 43,897,477 times
Reputation: 16638
Well, I think we all knew where this was going from the get-go.
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Old 08-08-2013, 10:22 PM
 
9,961 posts, read 17,469,767 times
Reputation: 9193
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
It is true that taking transit in Seattle, Portland and Minneapolis is a middle- and even upper-middle-class thing to do. It’s seen as an alternative to driving and many people who take transit also have cars. In other cities, only the poor take transit—it effectively means you can’t afford a car.
As someone who's taken the MAX and buses in Portland for years--there's a lot of poor folks who can't afford cars on most routes or teenagers (along with the disabled). Just like anywhere public transit is the only option for a lot of people. A lot of really broke people and druggies just ride the MAX for free since they rarely check tickets on it...

Professional-types often take the bus or MAX if they work downtown because it's much cheaper than parking. Other than that more upwardly mobile people will often take the bus if they're going downtown to an event or out for a night of drinking. However middle class and upper-middle-class professionals who work in the suburbs(where there's plenty of free parking) yet live in Portland rarely take the bus or train. For all the hype about mass transit here--mostly everyone I know who has been here for a while has a car that they use to get around.

People appreciate having the option--but that's what it is--an option. If people have a car they will ride public transit if it's cheaper and faster than driving--so if you have to pay for parking and deal with traffic(or want to have more than a few drinks at the beer fest)--people who could otherwise drive will ride transit. They don't ride it because it's trendy or because they think it will save the environment...
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Old 08-08-2013, 10:24 PM
 
9,961 posts, read 17,469,767 times
Reputation: 9193
Part of the reason though that Portland and Seattle are more effective for mass transit systems is that they're very centralized cities. They're really not that big in terms of almost all the main amenities being close to the core. You can get from most popular neighborhoods to downtown Portland in about 15 to 20 minutes on the bus or MAX. You have a lot of old pre-auto streetcar suburbs built around 1910 that are on bus lines leading to downtown that have their own little burgeoning commercial districts. And people pay a premium to live close-in in Seattle and Portland--the most central city neighborhoods are often among the most expensive. Both have fairly dense and compact central areas--there wasn't a lot of room to build out in Seattle before you get to water or steep hills.

In many Sunbelt cities where the downtown doesn't have much going on and has to compete with several other newer commercial districts further out--and the fact that people with money often live much further out--it becomes harder to get people to take a 30-45 minute bus or train ride(or ride a bus to the train) when there's a nice 10 lane freeway that can get you the same place in about 15 minutes if there isn't traffic.

Last edited by Deezus; 08-08-2013 at 10:35 PM..
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Hell, Arizona
97 posts, read 159,596 times
Reputation: 54
Here in Phoenix, the public transportation system is terrible. Finger Laker nailed it. I can cross the metro area in a forty or so minute drive on the freeway with my car but a bus would take two hours. Can't speak for other sunbelt cities, but here in Phoenix it is just too spread out that it saves time to take a car.
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