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Old 10-11-2013, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Shaw.
2,226 posts, read 3,144,045 times
Reputation: 809

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Small parts of S. Philly had Irish, but their presence was not nearly as large as Italian. Irish were more Fishtown, Kensington, Mafair and West Philly.
Though Devil's Pocket was super Irish, same with the nearby Grays Ferry. I know that's where all my South Philly Irish relatives lived (not so much anymore). The suburbs west of Philly are really Irish, though. My mom's cousin (when he was a kid) was asked by some South Philly Italians to be the go-between for the bookmaking. They needed someone with fairer hair/skin because they would have stuck out so much in Delaware County. (The area is more Italian now, but even when I was a kid, Havertown was the 33rd county).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Are you even Irish-American? What are you even blabbing about "had their land stolen and enslaved". Get real and stop blabbing Sinn Fein nonsense. Irish weren't slaves in the South, just as they weren't in the North. They were mostly indentured servants or when later waves came just free people looking for work with meager wages.
A lot of the poor Irish, English (yes), Welsh, and Scots who came to America weren't people looking for work in the colonies, but people who were kidnapped as children/young men. Some were lured by the promise of freedom and land, though it was not as genuine a promise as it seems. There were many crimes that could add time to your servitude such as not working hard enough that many of the "servants" were essentially enslaved for life. The major difference between this type of slavery and what followed is that it wasn't hereditary and there was at least some promise of freedom. But the first Black slaves in America were indentured servants and the first Black slave for life was one who was convicted of the crime of trying to flee is servitude before his time expired (he was enslaved to another Black man, for what it's worth). So, under any modern definition, the Irish were enslaved in America.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,788 posts, read 36,172,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post

A lot of the poor Irish, English (yes), Welsh, and Scots who came to America weren't people looking for work in the colonies, but people who were kidnapped as children/young men. Some were lured by the promise of freedom and land, though it was not as genuine a promise as it seems. There were many crimes that could add time to your servitude such as not working hard enough that many of the "servants" were essentially enslaved for life. The major difference between this type of slavery and what followed is that it wasn't hereditary and there was at least some promise of freedom. But the first Black slaves in America were indentured servants and the first Black slave for life was one who was convicted of the crime of trying to flee is servitude before his time expired (he was enslaved to another Black man, for what it's worth). So, under any modern definition, the Irish were enslaved in America.
I agree. We're looking at this issue from a 21st century perspective. Many people today don't realize just how harsh life was for the poor in England, Ireland, and Europe in general in the era of so called "Enlightenment." For instance, it was very common for young boys and teens, and even young men, to be literally kidnapped in the streets of London and taken to a ship and forced to live a life worse than some slavery on the high seas (often they were either nabbed while they were drunk or even simply knocked over the head and kidnapped and they woke up on a ship). I have read some first hand accounts of this sort of thing and what struck me is that these poor wretches often wrote that even on a slave ship filled with African slaves, they were treated worse than the slaves, because at least the slaves had a monetary value and these young kidnapped men had absolutely no value and were easily replaced at no cost.

Young women were of course also kidnapped like this and brought to the colonies to "serve" the colonists and populate the new world.

Very harsh times indeed.
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Old 10-11-2013, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Brew City
4,231 posts, read 2,510,875 times
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As far as small towns, if you're not Irish in Butte, MT, you're nobody.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,788 posts, read 36,172,094 times
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In fact, the term "shangheid" refers to forced conscription on a naval vessel and dates from the era of the tall ships and aggressive European colonization and the Gold Rush days in the US and it's territories.

"Help - I've been Shangei'd!"

Also, ever heard of a Press Gang? It's much the same thing. Quite a few Irish were victims of impressment by the Royal Navy and eventually ended up in the New World, penniless and on the run since they were "guilty" of desertion.

Impressment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,334 posts, read 10,309,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 058057 View Post
You clearly don't know the truth. It happened. It's not debatable. It's been covered up by the English.

Maybe don't insult an entire group of people and make light of their plight and you'll find I'm quite easily "lightened up".

Have you never asked yourself why it's perfectly okay to make fun of the Irish yet not to make fun of any other group? Sure you can make jokes about Italian and Polish, but their entire country and people? Hell no. The Irish though? Fair game.

You're a bore. Let it go and move on.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,334 posts, read 10,309,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 058057 View Post
I agree it is a bit ridiculous.

The difference is you don't see me making an American Indian joke on a thread about them, especially one mocking their plight, now do you? Yeah, everybody associates the Irish with drinking, and the only way the Irish are actually associated is the same way all people in Europe are. You're buying into a stereotype that was perpetrated by the English.

Or maybe I'm sick of people mocking the plight of the Irish or trying to cover it up.

No I'm just annoyed at seeing the double standards and the covering up of the history of people with my heritage.
You'd think you were born in Ireland. You're American I assume, you are not Irish. Nobody gives a crap about the old stereotype of Irish and drinking. I'm Irish American and happen to think the Irish drink more than most. I've seen it over and over with friends and family. Maybe you are just in denial.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
12,334 posts, read 10,309,361 times
Reputation: 5400
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I honestly would rather work in a field than in a coal mine or in factory conditions in the 1800s. But hey, that's just me. And by the way, there were many farmers in the south on small farms, who didn't own slaves. There were also black and white sharecroppers - lots of them.

I really would like to see some stats on the actual number of Irish slaves in the American South though. I can't find ANYTHING that even implies that there was any significant number. All I can find is information on indentured servitude, very RARE instances of Irish slavery (both in the North and in the South), with the vast majority of Irish slaves being sold by the English to the colonies in the Caribbean.

Most poor Irish immigrants to the American South were in the same boat as any other poor people (German, Scottish, English, etc) immigrating there - they were what is known as "dirt farmers" who often were sharecroppers till they could manage to buy or otherwise acquire a small farm.
White Irish slaves in the South is laughable. I have never heard of any such thing. Black slaves, yes. We all know that history, but white slaves. It just didn't exist. They were indentured servants if that. I really don't know what that poster is going on about claiming white Irish slaves in the South.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:20 PM
 
80 posts, read 92,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
White Irish slaves in the South is laughable. I have never heard of any such thing. Black slaves, yes. We all know that history, but white slaves. It just didn't exist. They were indentured servants if that. I really don't know what that poster is going on about claiming white Irish slaves in the South.
You being ignorant of the history of our world doesn't make that history non-existent.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:12 PM
 
12,684 posts, read 10,505,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
White Irish slaves in the South is laughable. I have never heard of any such thing. Black slaves, yes. We all know that history, but white slaves. It just didn't exist. They were indentured servants if that. I really don't know what that poster is going on about claiming white Irish slaves in the South.
Exactly, there weren't white slaves in America. Slavery was about race, 100%, and also about religion but that tied into race. While the Irish at some point may not have been a well liked ethnic group in the US, they weren't hated enough to be made slaves. First, they were white. Second, they were Christian. They were often indentured servants, but that was a temporary, albeit harsh, line of work with some benefits at the end.

There weren't white slaves, Irish or anyone else. It wouldn't have even been allowed in the American South (or North). Antebellum Southerners would be appalled at these claims right now. If by 'slaves' these posters mean in factories, working for very low wages, extremely long hours, rough conditions, etc, I could see that argument. But this wasn't slavery, and this was the fate of many immigrants and poor Americans at one point in history. Slaves (African) had no rights, were someone's property, were sold and bought for money, and had little to no freedom as slaves as well as little to no chance of becoming free people of color. No white immigrants or Americans suffered this same fate in the US. It literally was impossible since black people were considered inferior to any white people, no matter the ethnicity. They were on another (lower) level than whites in the eyes of Europeans and Americans at some points in history. Immigrant groups in the US were treated badly, namely the Italians and Irish at the height of immigration, but they were by no means enslaved by anyone ever.

I know I haven't been involved in this thread for this, but wow this is getting crazy. I had to comment on this slavery thing. Someone's a bit sensitive about their Irish-American heritage…
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:38 AM
 
80 posts, read 92,119 times
Reputation: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Exactly, there weren't white slaves in America. Slavery was about race, 100%, and also about religion but that tied into race. While the Irish at some point may not have been a well liked ethnic group in the US, they weren't hated enough to be made slaves. First, they were white. Second, they were Christian. They were often indentured servants, but that was a temporary, albeit harsh, line of work with some benefits at the end.
Wrong.

Why do you people continue to think you're the experts when you're not the ones with history on your side? Sources have been provided and still you go on with this unbelievably insulting crap.

50,000 Irish alone were enslaved by Oliver Cromwell after his "Glorious Revolution".

The term "white" is made up. Those fellow white people depicted the Irish as monkeys.

God damn you're ignorant and proud.

The other "white" groups didn't earn equal status (and only in the US, as they are still vilified in Europe) until after the Civil War.. well after.

I'd say the only one sensitive about their heritage is the one trying to cover up history.
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