U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 11-25-2007, 02:41 PM
 
808 posts, read 2,146,524 times
Reputation: 327

Advertisements

with the revitalization of downtowns in cities like Baltimore, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Chicago, Boston, etc. I'm curious if you guys think this is happening.

When a city's downtown and suburbs are for the rich, but the old 'inner ring' suburbs and outer city neighborhoods are full of poverty?
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-25-2007, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
2,806 posts, read 15,201,481 times
Reputation: 1076
Whats the question? Its not a matter of whether this is happening, it has already happened.

Most downtowns have become fairly upscale with a wealthy population. With the exception of NYC these upscale areas are usually fairly small. Surrounding that are large areas of either middle class neighborhoods or lower class/ghetto type areas. Generally there might be a few upper-middle class neighborhoods that are an exception to this, but not many of them.

Outside of the more middle or lower class neighborhoods there are usually a ring of very wealthy suburbs. Even farther out you have the exurbs which are for people who want all of the perks of the suburban lifestyle (large house, big yard, good public schools) but can't afford to live in the expensive suburbs.

This isn't really something in the realm of theory though. It has already happened over the past 40-50 years.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-25-2007, 07:35 PM
 
5,858 posts, read 14,044,713 times
Reputation: 3482
NE and Midwestern cities have changed drastically since WWII. Until the late 60s/early 70s in most cities the downtowns were for everyone. They had everything from upscale shops to thrift stores. Large department stores carrying higher end goods had "Bargain basements". The outer-city neighborhoods were largely populated by the middle and working classes and the "inner cities" were the slum neighborhoods where immigrants, poor blacks and other minorities resided. Inner cities were so named because they congregated around the edges of the downtown district, but not necessarily in a ring pattern. In many cities, there were neighborhoods at the edge of downtown that the upper classes resided in, despite being in close proximity to the poor inner city neighborhoods. The suburbs were by and large upper and upper-middle class until after WWI when the government funnelled lots of money into housing for ther working classes in them.

Sadly, most NE and Midwestern cities have compartmentalized themselves into warehouses for the poor, with small areas devoted to higher income residents. They are much less diverse ethnically, racially and economically than they were before the freeway era.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2007, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
455 posts, read 1,879,381 times
Reputation: 274
We've seen similar things happen in Dallas. Dallas' suburbs exploded in growth in the mid 1960's when the Dallas Independent School District started discussing busing kids to help better integrate the schools. Schools were legally desegregated but schools in white neighborhoods were all white, black were all black, etc. and busing the kids around would help even things out. Many fled DISD because of this and never looked back. Dallas ended up surrounded with suburban cities with top-notch school districts with classrooms full of lily-white faces, frankly. Dallas still stayed a pretty even mix of rich to poor, however, with the wealthy having choices of public or private schools.

What's happened over the years is that Dallas, itself, is becoming a city of extremes - wealthy and poor. The wealthy send their kids to expensive private schools and DISD is left with the poor kids, many with all kinds of problems that hinder a good education. There are exceptions, of course, and I'm not saying that's the case in every area or with every student. Some of the "best" neighborhoods in the city feed into the worst schools - and it's because the kids living near the schools aren't attending them.

What's interesting is that the first inner-ring of suburbs is now experiencing the "problems" that Dallas had way back when - the very things the first generation fled back in the 1960's. The aging inner-ring cities have deteriorating schools and social problems that simply didn't exist before. Newer suburbs that are farther out have replaced them as "the" places to live and that's where the growth and superior schools are. Meanwhile, some of the wealthy are choosing to move back into the city (their kids are grown so schools aren't an issue anymore), so the cycle continues.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2007, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Orange, California
1,573 posts, read 5,649,661 times
Reputation: 720
I think it is inevitable that the urban gentrification boom that has been ongoing in northeast/midwest (and other) cities starts in the downtown area before spreading to the (former) inner suburbs. The boom is based on the desire of people to live in trendy, "walkable" neighborhoods in the city, often in loft style apartments with exposed brick and, of course, granite and stainless appliances. The boom is also predicated on the availability of nearby shopping at boutique and mom and pop shops, as opposed to chains (notwithstanding the ubiquity of Starbucks in these new neighborhoods). The revitalizing downtown neighborhoods are the most conducive to loft conversions, the most conducive to subway/rail transportation, and the most conducive to walking to shops. The slightly more distant neighborhoods (former suburbs) often consist of houses, many of which need to be torn down and built from scratch to give the consumer the amenities they seek by moving back to the city. Plus, in a neighborhood near downtown of single family homes...they don't gentrify overnight. Many poor residents who have lived there for years will choose to stay living in those neighborhoods, whereas when an old downtown factory is converted to lofts, it becomes ready-made for dozens of yuppies (phrase dates me to a child of the 80s) to move in all at once.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2007, 01:28 PM
 
Location: LaSalle Park / St. Louis
570 posts, read 1,813,723 times
Reputation: 254
The inner ring neighborhoods around downtown St. Louis have experienced a huge rehabbing. The inner city to the north is in bad shape but slowly changing. There is an inner ring suburb in the north that is also in bad shape. The southern inner ring suburbs are just fine while the west inner ring suburbs are expensive and rising.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2007, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Mott Haven
2,978 posts, read 3,260,913 times
Reputation: 209
Thats a great picture Triple K. The revitalization of downtown districts is a welcome change and long overdue. How long did you think these areas would remain unchanged and just for the poor?

This country, especially larger cities like NYC, is constantly influx, so to have these large downtown areas to be so blighted for so long goes against the normal cycles. The popularity of downtown living will grow dramatically (IMO) as the youger generations prefers a more social, walk-able lifestyle, versus the isolated, car-dependant, fear driven suburbs.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2007, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 13,048,491 times
Reputation: 1609
I do believe with increasing sprawl, the inner ring suburbs and outer city neighborhoods will soon begin to see revitalization. In Baltimore, many former poor areas have been gentrified with middle and upper class residents moving in. The neighborhoods all around the downtown core have experienced this. Former residents have moved further out or into neighborhoods in the city that already had decresing population. At one time, Baltimore had close to 900 thousand. Now it is around 600 thousand. There is plenty of room in town for all to be happy. There are also quite a few projects in the city that are being developed as mixed-income in the hopes that the city will not become to class-segregated.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2007, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Mott Haven
2,978 posts, read 3,260,913 times
Reputation: 209
Yes that is exactly what is happening in the NYC area..upper Manhattan and the outer boroughs are seeing substantial development and revitalization...some moreso than others of course. That is not to see that there is rampant gentrification and poor people are being forced out, but it seems to be more of a reshuffling of the cards rather than a whole new deck.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2008, 03:55 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 2,750,122 times
Reputation: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by mead View Post
Whats the question? Its not a matter of whether this is happening, it has already happened.

Most downtowns have become fairly upscale with a wealthy population. With the exception of NYC these upscale areas are usually fairly small. Surrounding that are large areas of either middle class neighborhoods or lower class/ghetto type areas. Generally there might be a few upper-middle class neighborhoods that are an exception to this, but not many of them.

Outside of the more middle or lower class neighborhoods there are usually a ring of very wealthy suburbs. Even farther out you have the exurbs which are for people who want all of the perks of the suburban lifestyle (large house, big yard, good public schools) but can't afford to live in the expensive suburbs.

This isn't really something in the realm of theory though. It has already happened over the past 40-50 years.
It depends of course to the extent of which gentrification has occurred which in turn is connected to where a city fits in a sort of hierarchy of global cities (see Sassen's work for instance). In Chicago for instance anything near the Loop is gentrified or about to be - poorer people live in outer-city neighborhoods on the South Side, and increasingly in south suburbs like Harvey. One analysis of 2000 census tracts noted that the concentric rings model in Chicago (like in New York and San Francisco) had to some extent been inverted. In some way these so-called inner-ring suburbs are more vulnerable - their housing stock is less appealing to gentrifiers, and further from downtown.

The same can be said of Toronto, where I live. There are still many poor neighborhoods in the "Old City" like Regent Park and South Parkdale, but most of the "Old City" has either had at least some gentrification or is ripe for it. Meanwhile in the last 25 years or so incomes have fallen in inner ring suburbs like Scarborough. Most vulnerable have been more working class suburbs that don't have good transit access. A generation ago they would have been more stable, working class areas, today they've gotten poorer and are more ethnically diverse. In fact with the exception of some very wealthy areas you have to go way out to the fringe to find lilywhite areas.

It's not limited to the Northeast and Midwest either. Seattle and San Francisco are quite gentrified.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top