Does Virginia have more similarities with Maryland or North Carolina? (restaurants, malls)

[BigCityDreamer]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

NOVA does not have more political power than ROVA. I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. There are more votes in ROVA. Just because NOVA is helping to tip some elections in Democrats' favor does not mean that it has more political power.

And again, NOVA is not even close to being the majority of Virginia.

Not necessarily political votes. But, Northern Virginia probably is the bulk of the economy of Virginia in terms of GDP by now. It's hard to find figures on that though.

5 of the top 10 richest counties in the United States being in Northern Virginia certainly means it has a very disproportionate economic dominance in the state.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer

Not necessarily political votes. But, Northern Virginia probably is the bulk of the economy of Virginia in terms of GDP by now. It's hard to find figures on that though.

Why is that relevant? In what bizarro reality is a minority of a state more reflective of the state as a whole than the majority? Who cares if Northern Virginia is wealthy? That may make Northern Virginia more similar to Montgomery County, MD, but not Roanoke, Petersburg, Richmond, Hampton, Chesapeake, Virginia Beach, Charlottesville, Emporia, Danville, Tappahanock, etc. The DC suburbs are hardly representative of the entire state. And the fact that the DC (VA side) burbs constitute a disproportionate share of the state's GDP has no bearing on the culture of the other two-thirds of the population that don't live in NOVA.

Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer

5 of the top 10 richest counties in the United States being in Northern Virginia certainly means it has a very disproportionate economic dominance in the state.

The OP is asking whether Virginia has more similarities with Maryland or North Carolina. It's not a thread about how wealthy or economically dominant NOVA is compared to the rest of the state. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Virginia is decidedly culturally southern, which makes it more similar to North Carolina than Maryland.

Besides, the Research Triangle is not that far off from being another version of NOVA anyway (which is to say a SWPL bastion that wants to dissociate itself from all things southern). So it's not like the two states are that different culturally.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

Considering the loads of transplants and the character of urban/suburban NC, the closeness of NE North Carolina with SE Virginia and NC as a whole and its closer ties with MD and VA as opposed to SC, it's really not that far-fetched to for at least some parts of NC to have that Mid-Atlantic designation. I've seen NE North Carolina being designated as such at times, and I don't think it has anything to do with being "ashamed" of being Southern.

NC has closer ties with SC for sure (e.g., metro Charlotte, Upstate SC, the Wilmington-Myrtle Beach corridor), but is more characteristically similar to VA.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

NC has closer ties with SC for sure (e.g., metro Charlotte, Upstate SC, the Wilmington-Myrtle Beach corridor), but is more characteristically similar to VA.

NC is already firmly within a region. It's called the South.

The whole "tied" into argument is just silly. When would that end? Let's follow it through. NOVA is tied into DC. Richmond is tied into NOVA politically (since they are in the same state) as well as economically (some commuters from Richmond to the DC area). Petersburg is tied into Richmond. Emporia is tied into Petersburg-Richmond. Roankoke Rapids is just a few miles from Petersburg. Roanoke Rapids and Raleigh are somewhat connected. There are economic and political ties between Raleigh and Fayetteville. Fayetteville and Wilmington have ties. Then Myrtle Beach and Wilmington have ties. Florence is the center of the Pee Dee where Myrtle Beach lies. Columbia is only an hour from Florence and has political ties with Florence as the state capital. Columbia is only an hour from Augusta, which ties those two cities together, etc, etc, etc.

The reality is that if it's not even in the Washington, DC CSA, then it really has no business being called "Mid Atlantic." The "Mid Atlantic" is a definition that's changed drastically over the course of time, historically being the colonies of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Delaware (the Middle Colonies), then New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania (this is still the way the Census Bureau defines it), then parts of NJ/SEPA through NOVA (a view held by some...New Yorkers don't see themselves as part of the subregion at all), and then another view which refers specifically to the DC-Baltimore CSAs (which is the view I have on it).

The biggest thing these places have in common is that they are decidedly not southern (which doesn't mean "northern" in my mind either, but that's neither here nor there). The places outside of the DC CSA can't make this claim at all (and there are even places in the DC CSA that are ostensibly southern). Not even the ancestry and dialect maps work in ROVA or NC's favor. Those maps show that (1) both states are demographically similar to their southern neighbors and (2) both states fall within the southern dialect zone (NC falling entirely within it). Maryland has some characteristics that make it a borderline case, but ROVA and NC really have none.

[KeyserSoze]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

You do understand that by "ROVA" I mean "Rest of Virginia," right? A section of Virginia that has fewer people and fewer votes than the rest of the state does not have more political power than the other two-thirds of the state. And it's not like NOVA is the sole reason why Democrats are elected in Virginia. Virginia elected a black Democratic governor back in the 1980s with heavy support from Hampton Roads and Richmond as well. The population increase in NOVA has simply made it easier for Dems to carry the Commonwealth.

I mean, the majority of Virginia is not aligned with Central Maryland, so I'm not sure why you would think the state as a whole would be more similar to Maryland. That's a very DC Metro-centric view of things. NOVA is just one-third of the population, and even within that population, you have a lot of places like Stafford, Fredericksburg, Manassas, Nokesville, Warrenton, etc. that are really very different from, say, Falls Church, Annandale or even Centreville, little less Silver Spring. The majority of Virginia is decidedly southern and the Yankeefication of the DC/VA-side suburbs doesn't change that fact.

I've lived in this region for several years now, and have traveled in all three states extensively. Virginia trends middle-left now, and that’s because of the growth of NOVA. Plus, MD and VA share a lot in common outside of the DC metro, as I’ve stated. To say that they don’t, insist on assuming that I have a "DC-centric" view of things, and to mention the “Yankeeficiation” of NOVA says a lot about your opinion of what you think it’s like. Fredericksburg and all those areas further out are “different” because they’re exurbs. Exurbs tend to be "different" than closer-in suburbs.



I don't see a problem with people from NC claiming Mid-Atlantic, when evidence has shown that can be and sometimes is the case. Mid-Atlantic used to be a designation for places with an ambiguously Northern/characteristically Southern twist, but now it's increasingly becoming a designation for what some people view as a subset of the Northeast. You on the other hand cherry-pick one quote and say that some people are "ashamed" of who or what they are because they don't see themselves in the way you think they should. People get so caught up on "Southerness" that they miss the forest for the trees, insist that anything outside of their definition of "Southerness" is simply a different world, and can't fathom finding comparisons and similarities with "Southerness" and other non-Southern regions.


I don't deny that there's a rift between NOVA and the rest of the state, but to say NOVA is a mere outlier and that it holds no considerable weight or influence in the perception of the present and future of the state from a population, economic, and political standpoint is simply incorrect. And to say that population statistics, along with economy and political weight doesn't determine the perception of a state is also incorrect. Besides, ROVA as a region doesn't really exist, and it's a simplistic way of looking at a complex issue. Especially when Eastern VA vs. Western VA is just as big a divide, and most people in VA live in Eastern VA metros, which is more closely aligned from a cultural/economic standpoint with Central & Eastern Maryland than Central & Eastern North Carolina, anyway. The thing is all three states have complex divisions, all three states aren't what they used to be, and this creates a divide in urban/suburban areas vs. rural areas, just like anywhere else. But it's hardly as simplistic as you make it out to be. Throwing distinct parts of Virginia together and calling it “ROVA” because they’re “Southern” and NOVA is “Yankee” is a really black and white view of the situation. I mean, if what you're saying is true, then Central Maryland shouldn't dominate the character of Maryland as it does in many people's minds. It goes beyond the perceived "Southerness" of the areas.


What about VA is so much more like NC that can't be found in MD?

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

NC has closer ties with SC for sure (e.g., metro Charlotte, Upstate SC, the Wilmington-Myrtle Beach corridor), but is more characteristically similar to VA.

Wilmington and Charlotte maybe, but not so much for the rest of the state. The things that that tie them together are that they’re “neighbors” and that they’re both “the Carolinas”. But other than that, they’re different, and see themselves as such.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

I've lived in this region for several years now, and have traveled in all three states extensively. Virginia trends middle-left now, and that’s because of the growth of NOVA. Plus, MD and VA share a lot in common outside of the DC metro, as I’ve stated. To say that they don’t, insist on assuming that I have a "DC-centric" view of things, and to mention the “Yankeeficiation” of NOVA says a lot about your opinion of what you think it’s like. Fredericksburg and all those areas further out are “different” because they’re exurbs. Exurbs tend to be "different" than closer-in suburbs.

Did it take you all day to come up with that strawman argument? I made a very simple point you didn't make the slightest attempt to address: the vast majority of Virginia is decidely southern, which makes it more similar to North Carolina than it does Maryland. And yes, if you think that Virginia as a whole is more similar to Maryland than it it is to North Carolina because of Northern Virginia--which contains a minority of the population, mind you--then it's safe to say that you have a DC Metro-centric view of things.

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

I don't see a problem with people from NC claiming Mid-Atlantic, when evidence has shown that can be and sometimes is the case. Mid-Atlantic used to be a designation for places with an ambiguously Northern/characteristically Southern twist, but now it's increasingly becoming a designation for what some people view as a subset of the Northeast.

And ROVA and NC do not fall into that category. There's nothing ambiguous about either place. Southern dialect according to UPenn research? Check. Baptist largest religious denomination? Check. "American" the largest ancestry reported in several counties? Check. Sweet tea, grits, Waffle houses abundant? Check. Members of the Southern Legislative Council? Check. There's nothing that makes VA and NC borderline cases. They are solidly and firmly southern states.

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

You on the other hand cherry-pick one quote and say that some people are "ashamed" of who or w

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

hat they are because they don't see themselves in the way you think they should. People get so caught up on "Southerness" that they miss the forest for the trees, insist that anything outside of their definition of "Southerness" is simply a different world, and can't fathom finding comparisons and similarities with "Southerness" and other non-Southern regions.

This made no sense to me.

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

I don't deny that there's a rift between NOVA and the rest of the state, but to say NOVA is a mere outlier and that it holds no considerable weight or influence in the perception of the present and future of the state from a population, economic, and political standpoint is simply incorrect.

Where did I say any of that? I said that the vast majority of Virginia is southern. This makes it more similar to North Carolina than to Maryland. I mean, you know your argument is clear and straightforward when you can sum it up in two sentences (Go me! Go me! Go me!). It's the complete opposite of your rambling, incoherent argument that's wholly reliant on strawmen to make a non-sensical point.

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

And to say that population statistics, along with economy and political weight doesn't determine the perception of a state is also incorrect.

"Perception?" I'm talking about "reality" as in it's a reality that most of Virginia is southern and has more in common with NC than MD. Again, I simply don't understand how a minority can be more reflective of a state as a whole than the majority.

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

Besides, ROVA as a region doesn't really exist, and it's a simplistic way of looking at a complex issue.

It's not a complex issue. It's only complex in your head because you're making a ridiculous and convoluted argument. That's what happens when the facts don't support you.

[AllEars85]

First off the ROVA is a term that i dont like because the other areas of Va are all diffrent so why lump them together, and personally I think the Richmond area and the HR has more similarities to D.C. and MD than they do N.C.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

Wilmington and Charlotte maybe, but not so much for the rest of the state. The things that that tie them together are that they’re “neighbors” and that they’re both “the Carolinas”. But other than that, they’re different, and see themselves as such.

Not just Wilmington, but the entire Wilmington-Myrtle Beach corridor; Myrtle Beach actually snatched a county away from Wilmington's MSA and added it to its own when the MSA/CSA revisions were released earlier this year. And Upstate SC (Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson CSA) influences the border counties to the north in NC; as a matter of fact, the Upstate and Asheville are all one DMA. The ties between NC and VA are mainly relegated to Hampton Roads and Danville/the Triad. I'm not arguing that the Carolinas are completely tied to each other throughout, but that they have more ties to each other than NC and VA, particularly with metro Charlotte in the mix. So the Carolinas share more ties to each other, but NC and VA are more characteristically similar.

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by Diff1

Im still wanting to hear about these rowhouse neighborhoods in NC someone mentioned a few posts back

The only city I could think of is Charleston, SC but those row-houses are only in the historic district of the city and do not represent the majority of the city's housing stock by any means. That applies to any city in the South with the exception of Richmond, VA.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

The only city I could think of is Charleston, SC but those row-houses are only in the historic district of the city and do not represent the majority of the city's housing stock by any means. That applies to any city in the South with the exception of Richmond, VA.

I don't think rowhouses constitute the majority of Richmond's housing stock though.