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Old 11-29-2007, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Wichita Falls, TX
256 posts, read 989,504 times
Reputation: 77
IMO... its both

 
Old 11-29-2007, 11:02 AM
Status: "Back to work!" (set 14 days ago)
 
9,786 posts, read 10,801,270 times
Reputation: 4962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-o View Post
Read my response above.

As for the "superior cloth" comment? More like "superior army", get it right! lol . I know you and I sharply disagree over that flag and the Confederacy it stood for, so we'll leave it at that.

I did, and it was clarifying!

Touche' on the "superior army" thing though! I would be tempted to mention overall numbers and resources vis a vis overall casualities, BUT as you said, we both know we disagree over the War, The Confederacy, and the Battle Flag, so I agree with you to leave it at that!
 
Old 11-29-2007, 11:48 AM
 
Location: AZ
18,950 posts, read 49,532,294 times
Reputation: 7832
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
I would be tempted to mention overall numbers and resources
Thats why I say never stir a hornets nest.
 
Old 11-29-2007, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Boise
2,673 posts, read 4,305,774 times
Reputation: 941
Quote:
Originally Posted by xavierob82 View Post
I think people who show off rebel flags do it in defiance and has nothing to do with genuine pride. They are starving for attention.

I always associate the confederate flag with bigotry and racism and ignorant people fighting for the right of wealthy Southern plantation owners to keep their slaves and to spread slavery out west.

I still don't see why theres anything to be proud about. Its not like the Southern cause was all that noble.
Why wasn't the sourthern cause noble? This might come as a surprise but the civil war wasn't about slavery. It was about the federal gov't over exerting their power. They had the money, they had the power, they had the population. 90% of the confederate soldiers didn't own slaves. Why would you participate in an extremely bloody war in which you were outmanned to end slavery, if you had no slaves. The south rn cross was adopted by the KKK in forties, before that they used (gasp) the US flag, and they still do. The rebel flag is just that, for rebels. The confederacy was simply sick of being ruled by a completely different culture than their own. And mind you, their were black units that fought for the South, not to mention the CSA outlawed slavery before the Gettysburg address. Plus, Lincoln only outlawed slavery in Southern states in rebelion. The few union states that allowed for slavery were exempt. This shows that Lincoln wasn't even fully commited to ending slavery, just to punish South even more. To boot, General Lee was morally opposed to slavery. This proves that war was in fact not about slavery. You don;t lead an army that you don't agree with.
 
Old 11-29-2007, 07:31 PM
 
Location: NE Georgia
2,779 posts, read 6,738,303 times
Reputation: 1389
OK, I will try the KISS approach here.

The major issue around the Confederate Flag is the lack of knowledge that surrounds it, mostly due to revisionist history, the entertainment industry, militant so called civil rights groups, and 6th grade graduates of Red Neck High School.

The main, most popular confederate flag is the "Stars and Bars" which is actually a confederate battle flag from the civil war. This flag was adopted by the KKK, it was adopted again by the media, it was adopted again by the revisionist, and lastly by the rednecks. The best way to find this in what I call a joke note is seeing Bubba running down the road with the battle flag on the front of his truck. Yeee haw! Rebel Yell, Hell, no we ain't fergettin, etc.
Only issue? The darn flag is upside down. Duh!

Georgia is a great example of the battle emblem placed on the GA state flag in Jim Crowe's 1957, by the Dixiecrats in defiance of central government mandates. Fast foward to 2000. It's racist, well the reasoning was, but not the emblem. It must be changed demanded America's race peddling poverty pimp aka Jesse Jackson (you know the so called non racist guy who used to spit in the food of white folks when he worked in a restaurant), so GA issued flag #2. Still, not good because it displayed yet again, a tiny little confederate emblem. Jesse was back marching down MLK Blvd and on the state house stairs, this time with Al Sharpton. Ok, then GA developed flag#3, our current state flag. Now folks this flag was just fine. Yes, even Jesse liked it and gave his blessing. Liberals liked it, yes even most of the stump jumpers liked it. Now, how do you get so many people of so many different leanings agree. Could be overall lack of knowledge. How is it a lack of knowledge?
Well, during the Confederacy the breakaway had 3 different flags of the Confederacy. Today's Georgia flag is nothing but the 1st flag of the Confederacy with the State Seal placed on the flag, that's all.

Ever see the flag of Mississippi. It has the battle emblem, that is ok to all too.

I guess, it is just an item of hype and yet another tool of division which our media and professional leeches love so much. It's not heritage, but history.
It is history to me as my Great, Great grandfather was an officer in the Stonewall Brigade. The only thing, I don't fly the flag nor do I have it stuck on my car. It is in my history books on the bookcase, it is in the journals written by my ancestors.

There are many angles to the entire flag thing, but when it gets down to apples and oranges we should be flying one flag, AMERICAN, not the Confederate, not the Mexican, not the Black National, nor any other.

Just my 2 cents
 
Old 11-30-2007, 12:18 AM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
359 posts, read 1,269,749 times
Reputation: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinFromBoise View Post
Why wasn't the sourthern cause noble? This might come as a surprise but the civil war wasn't about slavery. It was about the federal gov't over exerting their power. They had the money, they had the power, they had the population. 90% of the confederate soldiers didn't own slaves. Why would you participate in an extremely bloody war in which you were outmanned to end slavery, if you had no slaves. The south rn cross was adopted by the KKK in forties, before that they used (gasp) the US flag, and they still do. The rebel flag is just that, for rebels. The confederacy was simply sick of being ruled by a completely different culture than their own. And mind you, their were black units that fought for the South, not to mention the CSA outlawed slavery before the Gettysburg address. Plus, Lincoln only outlawed slavery in Southern states in rebelion. The few union states that allowed for slavery were exempt. This shows that Lincoln wasn't even fully commited to ending slavery, just to punish South even more. To boot, General Lee was morally opposed to slavery. This proves that war was in fact not about slavery. You don;t lead an army that you don't agree with.
Well said! The war was about state's rights. Thank you.
 
Old 11-30-2007, 08:36 AM
 
Location: South Seattle Suburbs
2,724 posts, read 3,724,724 times
Reputation: 1740
Quote:
Originally Posted by kt2le View Post
Well said! The war was about state's rights. Thank you.
Exactly. The idea that it was purely a war over slavery is historical revisionism. The Confederates were fighting for the same ideals of independence and self-determination that our Founding Fathers did when they fought against the British. That's been forgotten. Had the Confederates won, we'd probably be calling it the Second American Revolution today.

And this comes from a born and bred Yankee who's never flown a Confederate flag.
 
Old 11-30-2007, 08:39 AM
 
Location: AZ
18,950 posts, read 49,532,294 times
Reputation: 7832
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoAdrian View Post
Exactly. The idea that it was purely a war over slavery is historical revisionism. The Confederates were fighting for the same ideals of independence
Why were they fighting for states rights?

Hmmmmm.
 
Old 11-30-2007, 08:47 AM
 
Location: South Seattle Suburbs
2,724 posts, read 3,724,724 times
Reputation: 1740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-o View Post
Why were they fighting for states rights?

Hmmmmm.
Because they wanted to make their own choices on their own terms .... socially, economically, and politically. It's the same battle people had been fighting since the birth of the nation -- strong centralized government versus states' rights to self-determination.

As others have mentioned, a small percentage of southerners actually owned slaves. Yes, slavery was a part of the issue, but it was not the sole issue or even the primary issue. I may not like the fact that the South had slaves, but I can't discount the other larger issues that were being fought for. And that's all I'm saying ... we've forgotten that there was much more to it than slavery.
 
Old 11-30-2007, 10:13 AM
 
Location: AZ
18,950 posts, read 49,532,294 times
Reputation: 7832
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoAdrian View Post
Yes, slavery was a part of the issue, but it was not the sole issue or even the primary issue
Id agree and disagree. I agree that slave ownership rights were not the ONLY reason for secession, but I disagree that the slave ownership issue was not the primary issue for secession, I believe it was (read South Carolina's clause for immediate secession). A BIG CHUNK of SC's reason for secession was over slave ownership:

"The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction."

South Carolina Secession Causes

Seriously, thats some disgusting stuff right there. Maybe that will open some eyes and finally shut some mouths.

Last edited by Steve-o; 11-30-2007 at 10:22 AM..
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