U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 10-19-2014, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,268,009 times
Reputation: 2168

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
We're a solidly northeastern state - that's all that matters in this discussion. I'm sorry you were offended at what we were saying about West Virginia, but it doesn't make the differences in accent and yes, even culture, any less true. Walk around where lammius and I live and try to tell me it feels and looks like your state. I promise you it does not. WV has very nice areas and NJ has very bad ones but that doesn't change facts. Jersey City, where lammius lives, has almost 250,000 people and sits right across the river from America's largest city. You hop on the PATH and are in NYC in 5 minutes. Charleston, WV's biggest city, has only 50,000 people and sits among mountains (though they are beautiful). That alone is a major difference in culture. And Jersey City is not even NJ's biggest city, Newark is.

People ride 4 wheelers in NJ, too. Despite stereotypes, we're not all concrete and oil refineries. We're called the Garden State for a reason. There are straight up hicks in some areas of NJ, usually extreme southwestern and northwestern parts, which are more rural in the south and mountainous in the north. There are hicks in every state. There are "country" parts of every state. Ever been to upstate NY?? But NJ's hicks don't go around muddin' screaming in a southern accent. They go around muddin' screaming in a NJ accent We were really taking about the accent differences. You won't find a native northerner with a southern accent. If WV is so northern, why the southern accents, even if it's only half the state?
Really? More than a few people have posted about how South Jersey is "southern". Is it really a "solidly northeastern" state, or on the fringe? After all, since you consider MD and Delaware "southern", New Jersey by logic can't be all that solidly northern. Wouldn't that - by your logic - make at least half of NJ kind of just scraping by? Barely northern?

I consider it a "solidly northeastern" state, but I am confused as to how DE and MD are southern but NJ could be "solidly northeastern" if you consider DE and MD southern.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-19-2014, 01:24 PM
 
342 posts, read 395,977 times
Reputation: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Jersey City, where lammius lives, has almost 250,000 people and sits right across the river from America's largest city. You hop on the PATH and are in NYC in 5 minutes. Charleston, WV's biggest city, has only 50,000 people and sits among mountains (though they are beautiful). That alone is a major difference in culture. And Jersey City is not even NJ's biggest city, Newark is.
So Vermont and Maine aren't northern states then. Gotcha. NJ doesn't even have a "major" city like Philly, NYC, Baltimore, DC, Boston, Buffalo, Pittsburgh. Jersey City, gimme a break. Georgia and Louisiana must be more northern than Virginia since they have major city and Virginia doesn't.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 01:26 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,545,533 times
Reputation: 17611
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Really? More than a few people have posted about how South Jersey is "southern". Is it really a "solidly northeastern" state, or on the fringe? After all, since you consider MD and Delaware "southern", New Jersey by logic can't be all that solidly northern. Wouldn't that - by your logic - make at least half of NJ kind of just scraping by? Barely northern?

I consider it a "solidly northeastern" state, but I am confused as to how DE and MD are southern but NJ could be "solidly northeastern" if you consider DE and MD southern.
They're just as crazy as those who claim Michigan is northeastern. Southern NJ is not southern. That's ridiculous. There is a thread in the NJ forums right now, spurned from this thread, asking about a NJ southern drawl because people here and in other "what states are northeastern?!?!" threads claiming south Jersey has a southern accent. Sure, if you consider the Philly influence a southern one...

Anyway, check it out, because we talk about how it doesn't exist, at least not even close to the way actual southerners speak, and how NJ is not southern.

I don't think MD and DE are southern. I think they're mid-Atlantic, transition zones. I think historically they were southern - because Maryland definitely was.

City data is a crazy place. You can say all you want that defies geography and history as we all know it, and there will always be some people who take it seriously or actually start to wonder, "hm, is this crazy person actually right?! Is NJ ACTUALLY southern because 3 people claim south Jersey has a southern accent?" Please. It's as if history isn't even a thing on this forum. As if you can't visit south Jersey tomorrow and see for yourself that no one sounds remotely southern, like someone you'd find in Atlanta or Birmingham. It's not that mysterious.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 01:27 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,545,533 times
Reputation: 17611
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post
So Vermont and Maine aren't northern states then. Gotcha. NJ doesn't even have a "major" city like Philly, NYC, Baltimore, DC, Boston, Buffalo, Pittsburgh. Jersey City, gimme a break. Georgia and Louisiana must be more northern than Virginia since they have major city and Virginia doesn't.
Congrats on missing the point! Gold star for you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Terramaria
776 posts, read 846,836 times
Reputation: 910
I was in York and Lancaster counties, PA yesterday and honestly didn't see much of a big shift compared to central MD. US 30 in PA feels a lot like US 40 in MD with the businesses, dense development, and rolling hills. There are even Chick-fil-a's and Waffle Houses in that part of PA, but do those make a place southern like those in MD? Not really. Yes, those two counties may have the most MD influence (along with Franklin and Adams) compared to the rest of the state, but there wasn't a big change in accents from what I detected other than a little less Baltimorese. Columbia, PA crossing the Susquehanna isn't too much different from Havre De Grace being historic river towns. I've never been to southern Maryland (no, Annapolis, Oxon Hill are not Southern MD) and while that section clearly fits into the South along with parts of the Eastern Shore (especially Dorchester, Somerset, Wicomico, and Worcester counties (not Ocean City itself), most Marylanders live in a section of the state that bonds its atmosphere to its states to its north, along with Northern Virginia which is clearly an anomaly to the rest of the state, despite more obvious signs of its southern heritage. And even the Census itself doesn't universally consider Maryland Southern on all of its surveys. I read part of a study involving cotton production from around 1900, and since MD doesn't grow cotton like VA does, listed that state as northern being an importer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 01:45 PM
 
342 posts, read 395,977 times
Reputation: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
They're just as crazy as those who claim Michigan is northeastern. Southern NJ is not southern. That's ridiculous. There is a thread in the NJ forums right now, spurned from this thread, asking about a NJ southern drawl because people here and in other what states are northeastern?!?! threads claiming south Jersey has a southern accent. Sure, if you consider the Philly influence a southern one... Anyway, check it out, because we talk about how it doesn't exist, at least not even close to the way actual southerners speak, and how NJ is not southern. I don't think MD and DE are southern. I think they're mid-Atlantic, transition zones. I think historically they were southern - because Maryland definitely was. City data is a crazy place. You can say all you want that defies geography and history as we all know it, and there will always be some people who take it seriously or actually start to wonder, is this crazy person actually right?! Is NJ ACTUALLY southern because 3 people claim south Jersey has a southern accent? It's as if history isn't even a thing on this forum. As if you can't visit south Jersey tomorrow and see for yourself that no one sounds remotely southern, like someone you'd find in Atlanta or Birmingham. It's not that mysterious.
All of this is true of MD and as far as I know Delaware - so what makes them transition zones and New Jersey "solidly" northeastern"? Like do you cross from MD to PA and notice a big culture shift? I don't, and I am not even from the region so I don't have a "side". The first time I went from MD to the middle of Virginia (Lynchburg) holy smokes it was like going to a different country. IF there was any transitional zone, it was in the north of VA, not in Baltimore or Delaware, that is absolutely ridiculous. According to what you are saying somewhere like Philadelphia must be practically southern. No one can tell me that with a straight face. Not even Baltimore is practically southern. Not until you get to the area around DC/NOVA and the extreme southern portion of MD like Calvert county does it become "transitional".
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
It's as if history isn't even a thing on this forum. As if you can't visit south Jersey tomorrow and see for yourself that no one sounds remotely southern, like someone you'd find in Atlanta or Birmingham. It's not that mysterious.
Okay, but if I visit the middle of MD nobody sounds remotely like Birmingham or Atlanta. When I get to VA people start to sound "remotely like Birmingham and Atlanta". So why would MD be transitional and not northeastern, as the vast majority of people find it to be? Right now you are the "one of those crazies on City Data" who actually think MD and DE are southern, so I am unsure why they bother you when people question New Jersey's northernness. I mean you aren't New York or Massachusetts so can we really call you "solidly northeastern"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 01:56 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,545,533 times
Reputation: 17611
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeMike91 View Post
All of this is true of MD and as far as I know Delaware - so what makes them transition zones and New Jersey "solidly" northeastern"? Like do you cross from MD to PA and notice a big culture shift? I don't, and I am not even from the region so I don't have a "side". The first time I went from MD to the middle of Virginia (Lynchburg) holy smokes it was like going to a different country. IF there was any transitional zone, it was in the north of VA, not in Baltimore or Delaware, that is absolutely ridiculous. According to what you are saying somewhere like Philadelphia must be practically southern. No one can tell me that with a straight face. Not even Baltimore is practically southern. Not until you get to the area around DC/NOVA and the extreme southern portion of MD like Calvert county does it become "transitional". Okay, but if I visit the middle of MD nobody sounds remotely like Birmingham or Atlanta. When I get to VA people start to sound "remotely like Birmingham and Atlanta". So why would MD be transitional and not northeastern, as the vast majority of people find it to be? Right now you are the "one of those crazies on City Data" who actually think MD and DE are southern, so I am unsure why they bother you when people question New Jersey's northernness. I mean you aren't New York or Massachusetts so can we really call you "solidly northeastern"?
I don't think MD and DE are southern! Yet again

NJ has never been considered by anyone who matters to be anything but northern. Ever. NJ has never been a southern state. No one has questioned NJ's place in the north or argued that we were once southern. No census or government or historical information has suggested otherwise. NJ was a middle colony, with NY actually so then what makes NY so northern over NJ if you want to go there?, but that was when we had New England, Middle, and South. Civil War led to just north and south, and that lead to modern distinctions of what people consider to be northern and southern. NJ was never labeled southern. NJ is not southern, never was, never will be. All characteristics for NJ match northeast, specifically BosWash, right down to 19th-20th century immigration patterns and why the northeast is so conscious of ethnicity over other regions. Why it is so Italian and Irish over other regions. Stuff like this. Criteria that has been discussed time and time again in this thread that I am not going back to...

Please, create a poll asking if NJ is southern if you wish. But don't bother me about it to try to prove a point that is not relevant to NJ. Throwing my arguments back at me with my own state is useless when there is little debate over NJ's regional status. If you want to spark a debate about it, start a thread, but I think it's quite clear which states are heavily debated time and time again on this forum - DE, MD, VA.

I mean really, we could play this type of game all day. "Maine seems pretty rural and has no major cities like Boston or New York, so is Maine southern? Is it a transition zone? Same with Vermont, maybe Vermont is not truly northern..." I think part of the problem with the "southern" argument is that people tend to equate rural with southern. Northern areas have rural areas. Being rural does not make a place southern. This is something I find some people have a hard time understanding in general when discussing north and south, or "southern characteristics," when they really are trying to say a place is rural.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Germany
29 posts, read 26,997 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
They're just as crazy as those who claim Michigan is northeastern. Southern NJ is not southern. That's ridiculous. There is a thread in the NJ forums right now, spurned from this thread, asking about a NJ southern drawl because people here and in other what states are northeastern?!? threads claiming south Jersey has a southern accent. Sure, if you consider the Philly influence a southern one... Anyway, check it out, because we talk about how it doesn't exist, at least not even close to the way actual southerners speak, and how NJ is not southern. I don't think MD and DE are southern. I think they're mid-Atlantic, transition zones. I think historically they were southern - because Maryland definitely was. City data is a crazy place. You can say all you want that defies geography and history as we all know it, and there will always be some people who take it seriously or actually start to wonder, "hm, is this crazy person actually right?! Is NJ ACTUALLY southern because 3 people claim south Jersey has a southern accent. It's as if history isn't even a thing on this forum. As if you can't visit south Jersey tomorrow and see for yourself that no one sounds remotely southern, like someone you'd find in Atlanta or Birmingham. It's not that mysterious.
This is is an odd posting. Please forgive my bluntness. I think you are being somewhat rash in questioning Maryland as a northeastern state, while calling New Jersey "solidly northeastern". But what stand out equally is that Maryland was only for some time historically a southern state - during the earliest days of the country, then it shifted north. I don't think we can simply say "it was historically southern". Was 1980 not history? I think in 1980 it is safe to say MD was northern. And in 1880 I highly doubt it was "southern" but moreso a mixed state. Maryland voted for Abraham Lincoln, it is absurd to even think of a state that was "southern" in 1864 doing this. There was also a similar number of Marylanders in the Union army as New Jersey - but from a smaller population. So I think your assessment for MD being historically southern is questionable. It was certain things at certain points in time. There is also one point of utmost importance to keep in mind when calling Maryland historically southern or northern. "Southern" and "northern" cultures were different in 1790 than in 1990. They changed and morphed over time. Obviously slave holding is no longer a part of southern culture, and similarly Puritanism is far from being part of northern culture. Either way, when classifying these states in 2014, I think it is absurd to call MD southern or even transitional. Both MD and NJ (in my opinion two of the most similar states in the region and country) are "solidly northeastern".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 02:10 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,545,533 times
Reputation: 17611
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelF1973 View Post
This is is an odd posting. Please forgive my bluntness. I think you are being somewhat rash in questioning Maryland as a northeastern state, while calling New Jersey "solidly northeastern". But what stand out equally is that Maryland was only for some time historically a southern state - during the earliest days of the country, then it shifted north. I don't think we can simply say "it was historically southern". Was 1980 not history? I think in 1980 it is safe to say MD was northern. And in 1880 I highly doubt it was "southern" but moreso a mixed state. Maryland voted for Abraham Lincoln, it is absurd to even think of a state that was "southern" in 1864 doing this. There was also a similar number of Marylanders in the Union army as New Jersey - but from a smaller population. So I think your assessment for MD being historically southern is questionable. It was certain things at certain points in time. There is also one point of utmost importance to keep in mind when calling Maryland historically southern or northern. "Southern" and "northern" cultures were different in 1790 than in 1990. They changed and morphed over time. Obviously slave holding is no longer a part of southern culture, and similarly Puritanism is far from being part of northern culture. Either way, when classifying these states in 2014, I think it is absurd to call MD southern or even transitional. Both MD and NJ (in my opinion two of the most similar states in the region and country) are "solidly northeastern".
I respect your opinion, you've put it quite kindly. But I am not the only one who questions MD's place. The whole premise for threads like this is states like Maryland. Many threads have debated what MD is, and you get 3 answers: northeastern/northern, mid-Atlantic/transitional, and southern. It is so contested that this is why we have threads like this! This is why this thread is still going and others like it pop up. I'm not the only one who does not like to call MD northeastern. It is a heavily debated topic on this forum and there are strong opinions all ways. In real life, I know people who consider it to be any of all 3. It's just one of those states that is debated. It's in there along with Missouri, Texas (southern or southwestern?), Virginia now. The problem is they had a specific place in history until recently when people started moving around and shifting the culture, in the case of MD and VA. There's the historical view of the regions then there's the cultural view. Often it depends on what you think matters more: history, centuries of it, or what's happened culturally in the last few decades?

Despite what some have said to be obtuse, NJ's place is not questioned. Neither is New York's. Neither is Massachusetts, California's, Minnesota's, Alabama's. Regions of these states are rarely questioned. If they are, often it is in a joking manner. But other states are just contested, and it is because of the clash of history and culture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Germany
29 posts, read 26,997 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
I don't think MD and DE are southern!
But to call them transitional zones indicate that you consider them to be southern to a heavy degree. What you are saying is like saying a mixed person is neither Caucasian or of African descent, when they are both of these things. So by calling them what you label as "transitional" you are in effect saying they are so southern that they can't be considered northern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
NJ has never been considered by anyone who matters to be anything but northern. Ever. NJ has never been a southern state. No one has questioned NJ's place in the north or argued that we were once southern. No census or government or historical information has suggested otherwise. NJ was a middle colony, with NY actually so then what makes NY so northern over NJ if you want to go there?, but that was when we had New England, Middle, and South. Civil War led to just north and south, and that lead to modern distinctions of what people consider to be northern and southern. NJ was never labeled southern. NJ is not southern, never was, never will be. All characteristics for NJ match northeast, specifically BosWash, right down to 19th-20th century immigration patterns and why the northeast is so conscious of ethnicity over other regions. Why it is so Italian and Irish over other regions. Stuff like this. Criteria that has been discussed time and time again in this thread that I am not going back to...
A few points: You say that New Jersey was always considered northern, and then go on to say it was once considered in the middle which is very true. So it was not always considered northern, or perhaps half northern as you now consider Maryland to only be half (or whereabouts) northern. You also say the US Civil War divided the country into north and south making NJ clearly northern, yet Maryland was a "northern" state by a wide margin in this conflict. So in a way you are contradicting your last post where you called Maryland historically southern. If what you say above is true, and consider the US Civil War to have led to modern distinctions of north and south, then Maryland would be a very northern state, with only a few southern dissenters. Hardly a "transitional zone" that is to say. This would be better to describe West Virginia, Missouri or Tennessee - both truly divided states in the sympathies of men - based upon your assessment of using Civil War sides to dictate modern conception of northern and southern.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Please, create a poll asking if NJ is southern if you wish. But don't bother me about it to try to prove a point that is not relevant to NJ. Throwing my arguments back at me with my own state is useless when there is little debate over NJ's regional status. If you want to spark a debate about it, start a thread, but I think it's quite clear which states are heavily debated time and time again on this forum - DE, MD, VA.
There is a recent poll about Maryland which I earlier posted. It shows that most people by a wide margin find Maryland a northern state. And of course - like you say - we have to count for the crazies. In the thread you yourself say that you voted for Maryland to be a southern state (yet now you claim you do not consider it southern but only so called "transitional"). I only hope to understand your logic which is "all over the map" as they say. I really don't see much debate about Virginia being a southern state; there appear to be as many questions on this forum about Pennsylvania and New Jersey's southernness. JerseyGirl415, I hope we can continue a mature and civilized discussion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top