U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 10-19-2014, 03:46 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
91 posts, read 93,117 times
Reputation: 157

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelF1973 View Post
This is is an odd posting. Please forgive my bluntness. I think you are being somewhat rash in questioning Maryland as a northeastern state, while calling New Jersey "solidly northeastern". But what stand out equally is that Maryland was only for some time historically a southern state - during the earliest days of the country, then it shifted north. I don't think we can simply say "it was historically southern". Was 1980 not history? I think in 1980 it is safe to say MD was northern. And in 1880 I highly doubt it was "southern" but moreso a mixed state. Maryland voted for Abraham Lincoln, it is absurd to even think of a state that was "southern" in 1864 doing this. There was also a similar number of Marylanders in the Union army as New Jersey - but from a smaller population. So I think your assessment for MD being historically southern is questionable. It was certain things at certain points in time. There is also one point of utmost importance to keep in mind when calling Maryland historically southern or northern. "Southern" and "northern" cultures were different in 1790 than in 1990. They changed and morphed over time. Obviously slave holding is no longer a part of southern culture, and similarly Puritanism is far from being part of northern culture. Either way, when classifying these states in 2014, I think it is absurd to call MD southern or even transitional. Both MD and NJ (in my opinion two of the most similar states in the region and country) are "solidly northeastern".
+ 1 Your posts here have been great. I think you destroyed the opposing argument. If someone from Maryland told me they are a Southerner I would probably laugh and ask if they are making a quick joke.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-19-2014, 03:47 PM
 
620 posts, read 687,908 times
Reputation: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
You are being sensitive, I don't think like that at all and I am well-traveled.

To me, if even only half of the state is Southern, the state can't be Northern. WV is not like New York or Maine (since I apparently can't use NJ as a reference without you thinking I think NJ is the pinnacle of the Northeast - how about this, it's what I'm most used to since I live here It's an easy point of reference for me to talk about). No one in either of those states has any southern qualities. Rural/"country" qualities, sure, which are associated with Southern-ness (which I cannot explain) but are not themselves Southern characteristics. When people in some parts of WV speak with a thick Southern drawl, sorry, it's not Northern. The northern part is not Southern, fine, then don't call it either. Call THAT a transition state. But I think most people would call WV Southern and not even question it. That's why I was so shocked muppet questioned it - most do not question WV like they question Maryland. But then again muppet thinks Michigan is Northeastern, so maybe I shouldn't be that surprised.

I'm about as tired of some Southerners and Midwesterners complaining about Northeastern arrogance than you probably are about interpreting what's being said as arrogance. You don't have to like it, but it is a fact that northeastern states like CT, MA, and NJ along with Maryland, however you want to classify it, are among the wealthiest states in the nation while West Virginia is not. BosWash/Northeast Corridor is an actual thing, not a myth made up by stuck-up northerners to make everyone else feel bad: it is a fact that the Northeastern states have or are very near major cities, with high populations, densities, and a much more urban feel than more consistently rural states. It is a fact that states like MA and NJ have very high rates of higher education, people with degrees. I'm sorry if you view this is arrogance, but if I can go find sources to back this up and post them right now, I don't think I'm being anything but truthful.
West Virginia would also be a debated state due to WV's location. Some people call WV southern, others call WV northern including myself. Not everyone calls West Virginia southern. There should be a thread about this somewhere on this site.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 03:50 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
91 posts, read 93,117 times
Reputation: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Exactly! I agree with all of that, well said. That bolded line is a perfect summary of Maryland, I think. You highlight why it is so contested - and yes arguments for both sides are perfectly valid. If they weren't, there wouldn't be 140 pages of this and the mods would have shut it down a while ago like they shut down all the parody poll threads that came from this - "Is New York a Northern or Southern state?"
So you agree with the part where he said absolutely no one would confuse Maryland today for the South?

Strange you just made a bunch of posts calling it fairly mixed southern a "transitional zone". You are all over the place.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 03:54 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,518,901 times
Reputation: 17606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oranje1 View Post
So you agree with the part where he said absolutely no one would confuse Maryland today for the South?

Strange you just made a bunch of posts calling it fairly mixed southern a "transitional zone". You are all over the place.
I am not all over the place. The problem that you don't understand is there are THREE options many people consider, not just 2. It's not just North and South. It's North, South, and mid-Atlantic, which many consider to be a transitional zone. Mid-Atlantic is an actual region, but the region itself has contention. The Census defines it as not Maryland, but many people commonly define it as NY to VA. It is a region and a sub-region. But there are definitive "mid-Atlantic characteristics" that exist. I personally consider Maryland to be mid-Atlantic. But it is unquestionable that DC is part of the Northeast Corridor/BosWash collection of cities.

I undertand why someone would call MD northeastern but I don't necessarily agree with it personally. It makes sense, but I have a hard time definitively classifying Maryland. To me, at the moment mid-Atlantic makes sense - and I have been saying that for a while. I am not changing my opinion, I am explaining the complexity.

Are you an American living in the Netherlands, or are you from the Netherlands? I'm curious.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,264,566 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oranje1 View Post
So you agree with the part where he said absolutely no one would confuse Maryland today for the South?

Strange you just made a bunch of posts calling it fairly mixed southern a "transitional zone". You are all over the place.
Yeah I agree, and Michael already completely crushed her constantly-moving-goalposts-argument.

But hey it looks like now she thinks MD is Mid-Atlantic and definitely part of the northeast corridor, but remember that New Jersey is "solidly northeastern" (not Mid-Atlantic). Yet she voted Maryland is a southern state in the poll.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 04:00 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
91 posts, read 93,117 times
Reputation: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Yeah I agree, and Michael already completely crushed her constantly-moving-goalposts-argument.

But hey it looks like now she thinks MD is Mid-Atlantic and definitely part of the northeast corridor, but remember that New Jersey is "solidly northeastern" (not Mid-Atlantic). Yet she voted Maryland is a southern state in the poll.
If you were wondering if it's just you, it's not!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Are you an American living in the Netherlands, or are you from the Netherlands? I'm curious.
Here's the part where you try to bait me so I look uncredible because of my nationality/ethnicity/location. Thanks but no thanks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 04:03 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,518,901 times
Reputation: 17606
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Yeah I agree, and Michael already completely crushed her constantly-moving-goalposts-argument.

But hey it looks like now she thinks MD is Mid-Atlantic and definitely part of the northeast corridor, but remember that New Jersey is "solidly northeastern" (not Mid-Atlantic). Yet she voted Maryland is a southern state in the poll.
I've always said it's mid-Atlantic if given the option. The poll Michael is referring to that he created gave 2 options, and I've explained why I picked Southern (in a response detailing history that no one has yet responded to - yet you insult me and say my argument was crushed when no one' even answered it yet ).

NJ is both northeastern and Mid-Atlantic. This is a classification many agree with - including the Census, who declares the mid-Atlantic as NJ, NY, and PA, and it is a subregion of Northeast, along with New England. Oh, but the Census is irrelevant, so I can't cite that. Mid-Atlantic is a weird region. It can be its own region or a region within a region, depending on how you classify it. I think this thread shows that people choose to classify regions as they want, and there's no need to be rude and condescending because you disagree with someone's opinion. Clearly with this much debate, Maryland is not entirely anything, so why are you so convinced I'm wrong?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 04:08 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,518,901 times
Reputation: 17606
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oranje1 View Post
Here's the part where you try to bait me so I look uncredible because of my nationality/ethnicity/location. Thanks but no thanks.
Well, it is true. If you did not grow up here, how could you even understand the complexities of the regions, based on their history? Even people who grew up in CA, not an original 13 colonies state steeped in North/South history do not comprehend it like someone from an Eastern state does. Westerners frequently question on these forums why Easterners still debate North/South.

I don't pretend to know about The Netherlands. And I'm also not condescending regarding the opinion of someone from The Netherlands talking about their own country.

I'm not trying to discredit you, I'm just wondering how much you know. The perceptions of outsiders DO matter, too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Germany
29 posts, read 26,944 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
I've always said it's mid-Atlantic if given the option. The poll Michael is referring to that he created gave 2 options, and I've explained why I picked Southern (in a response detailing history that no one has yet responded to - yet you insult me and say my argument was crushed when no one' even answered it yet ).

NJ is both northeastern and Mid-Atlantic. This is a classification many agree with - including the Census, who declares the mid-Atlantic as NJ, NY, and PA, and it is a subregion of Northeast, along with New England. Oh, but the Census is irrelevant, so I can't cite that. Mid-Atlantic is a weird region. It can be its own region or a region within a region, depending on how you classify it. I think this thread shows that people choose to classify regions as they want, and there's no need to be rude and condescending because you disagree with someone's opinion. Clearly with this much debate, Maryland is not entirely anything, so why are you so convinced I'm wrong?
Unfortunately, I think you are unintentionally picking and choosing options instead of looking at the big picture. It easy to do that when we have a bias, as we all do. Your bias in New Jersey, in my opinion, appears to be that New Jersey is almost the standard for northeastern states (if not "the" standard) and because of this you are only looking at things through one glass of the binocular. Whichever road you choose to walk, please keep my post about former German areas of Poland and France and coming across as insulting in mind. I can imagine that for many Marylanders your attitude may come off as somewhat arrogant and snobbish. I do not detect that this is your intention, so perhaps this is something to bear in mind. I say this with directness and respect, and not to insult you or your intelligence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2014, 04:26 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
91 posts, read 93,117 times
Reputation: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Well, it is true. If you did not grow up here, how could you even understand the complexities of the regions, based on their history? Even people who grew up in CA, not an original 13 colonies state steeped in North/South history do not comprehend it like someone from an Eastern state does. Westerners frequently question on these forums why Easterners still debate North/South.

I don't pretend to know about The Netherlands. And I'm also not condescending regarding the opinion of someone from The Netherlands talking about their own country.

I'm not trying to discredit you, I'm just wondering how much you know. The perceptions of outsiders DO matter, too.
- Have you ever considered that sometimes you can see more clearly from the outside than the inside. The Nazi Germans thought they were the good guys. From their perspective, you (Americans) were dead wrong. Good thing we had some outside perspective on that whole issue. You have an inherent bias being in New Jersey, and have never lived in Maryland either. The funny thing is that NJ and MD are extremely similar, yet MD doesn't make your cut. This is because you have a warped view of your own place. You only view things from your own persepctive.


- How much I know? Probably as much or more than you. I know your Civil War knowledge is off. I am interested to know what was southern about voting for Lincoln, fighting the CSA en masse, and voting to abolish slavery? While the southerners were sacrificing an entire generation of their youth to do the opposite? I await your response.


- I can also tell you that going through NJ down to MD there was no cultural difference I could detect with the exception the far north of NJ being a larger presence of Italians and Pizzerias and a NYC feel. But the rest of the state, 99% the same thing as MD under a different name with 1% being MD has much more attractive women.


But I go from MD into Virginia and BAM! cultural change. New accents. New ways of acting. Not "diverse" just white or black. Confederate flags. Signs welcoming me to "Dixie" (had never even heard of this), the Southland, the South, the "real South" and more inventive names for a people who clearly are different. It's the same thing everyone reports, and in European books about American culture and "advice" we are told quite clearly Maryland is the North, Virginia is the South, do not confuse the two unless you want to come across as uncultured and rude. And it is all real, because from what I've seen over the years is that a town in MD or PA could be NJ and vice versa, the main exception being the extreme north of NJ which is just a NYC suburb. So how do you explain that? Isn't that what "cultural shock" is? Because from NJ to MD there is none, from MD to VA outside of the DC suburbs there is some.


But at the end of the day if you want to say I have no clue because of my race/ethnicity/nationality, then go ahead, but you are the one furthering the stereotype of your own state and showing the true difference between MD and NJ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top