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Old 10-19-2014, 06:41 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,541,927 times
Reputation: 17611

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You guys are being ridiculous.

My view is shaped by history, nothing else, as I've said. As a historian, I believe in the importance of history and cannot ignore it (years of Maryland flip flopping or showing allegiance to both or one over the other at different times) just because now, things are a bit different and have been for only a relatively short time in the long timeframe of history. IMO the history of Maryland has been enough of a mix for it to be be either or neither right now. I don't need a lecture on how similar to my state Maryland is (I already know this) or how you think my opinion is warped by where I live.

I don't have to explain myself any longer or any more than you have to explain your opinions. From the thread, it is clear opinions are varied greatly and I don't understand why mine is being singled out and attacked. I'm done. Have a nice life picking apart people's opinions on something that is clearly not resolved (if it were, this thread and dozens like it wouldn't even exist!) and is clearly opinion based.
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Old 10-19-2014, 07:17 PM
Status: "Retired" (set 21 hours ago)
 
620 posts, read 688,966 times
Reputation: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
You guys are being ridiculous.

My view is shaped by history, nothing else, as I've said. As a historian, I believe in the importance of history and cannot ignore it (years of Maryland flip flopping or showing allegiance to both or one over the other at different times) just because now, things are a bit different and have been for only a relatively short time in the long timeframe of history. IMO the history of Maryland has been enough of a mix for it to be be either or neither right now. I don't need a lecture on how similar to my state Maryland is (I already know this) or how you think my opinion is warped by where I live.

I don't have to explain myself any longer or any more than you have to explain your opinions. From the thread, it is clear opinions are varied greatly and I don't understand why mine is being singled out and attacked. I'm done. Have a nice life picking apart people's opinions on something that is clearly not resolved (if it were, this thread and dozens like it wouldn't even exist!) and is clearly opinion based.
I found Maryland to be similar to other Northeastern states (high white ethnic population (Italian, Irish, Greek, etc), low black percentage outside of Baltimore, Washington and PG county, heavy industry, borders Pennsylvania and Delaware, etc)

The US Census's Mid-Atlantic map looks like the Flintstones because the Census forgot to put Maryland and Delaware in their own Mid-Atlantic map.
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Old 10-19-2014, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,267,501 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
You guys are being ridiculous.

My view is shaped by history, nothing else, as I've said. As a historian, I believe in the importance of history and cannot ignore it (years of Maryland flip flopping or showing allegiance to both or one over the other at different times) just because now, things are a bit different and have been for only a relatively short time in the long timeframe of history. IMO the history of Maryland has been enough of a mix for it to be be either or neither right now. I don't need a lecture on how similar to my state Maryland is (I already know this) or how you think my opinion is warped by where I live.

I don't have to explain myself any longer or any more than you have to explain your opinions. From the thread, it is clear opinions are varied greatly and I don't understand why mine is being singled out and attacked. I'm done. Have a nice life picking apart people's opinions on something that is clearly not resolved (if it were, this thread and dozens like it wouldn't even exist!) and is clearly opinion based.
I hope you don't feel "attacked" because that isn't how I want to make you feel. I'm sorry if I have come off that way (really). Ironically enough, I am an actual, real-life historian (who teaches at a college), so I love history as much as anyone and usually jump at any chance to preach the importance of history. I'd love everyone to be more interested in history so I could actually make more than pennies for writing a book about the History of Maryland or Roman Gaul, or about whatever subject.

But when someone asks "is Maryland the northern or southern" they mean right now, not in 1820. When someone asks what kind of clothes you wear they tend to mean currently, not when you were 15 years old, and when they ask if Gdansk is German or Polish or if Strasbourg is German or French they mean right now, not in 1914. So I don't see how we can just base something like whether a state is northern or southern on just history. We could by this logic ask "is New Jersey really American"? After all it was Dutch, and then English and of course following 1707 also Scottish and Welsh property as well, and then in 1776 (or 1783) became the property of another country, the USA. Yet we all tell people that the culture in New Jersey is American. They aren't going to argue that New Jersey is Dutch, because it is simply no longer culturally Dutch.

Anyways, I apologize for attacking you or coming off as harsh. I don't think that was anyone's aim.
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Old 10-19-2014, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Jersey City
6,490 posts, read 16,181,014 times
Reputation: 5646
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
The US Census's Mid-Atlantic map looks like the Flintstones because the Census forgot to put Maryland and Delaware in their own Mid-Atlantic map.
You've said this before but I have no idea what you mean.
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Old 10-19-2014, 08:49 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,541,927 times
Reputation: 17611
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
I hope you don't feel "attacked" because that isn't how I want to make you feel. I'm sorry if I have come off that way (really). Ironically enough, I am an actual, real-life historian (who teaches at a college), so I love history as much as anyone and usually jump at any chance to preach the importance of history. I'd love everyone to be more interested in history so I could actually make more than pennies for writing a book about the History of Maryland or Roman Gaul, or about whatever subject.

But when someone asks "is Maryland the northern or southern" they mean right now, not in 1820. When someone asks what kind of clothes you wear they tend to mean currently, not when you were 15 years old, and when they ask if Gdansk is German or Polish or if Strasbourg is German or French they mean right now, not in 1914. So I don't see how we can just base something like whether a state is northern or southern on just history. We could by this logic ask "is New Jersey really American"? After all it was Dutch, and then English and of course following 1707 also Scottish and Welsh property as well, and then in 1776 (or 1783) became the property of another country, the USA. Yet we all tell people that the culture in New Jersey is American. They aren't going to argue that New Jersey is Dutch, because it is simply no longer culturally Dutch.

Anyways, I apologize for attacking you or coming off as harsh. I don't think that was anyone's aim.
Interesting that you are a history professor. It was my major not that long ago. I'm specifically interested in American history and even more specifically America's involvement in WWII. That's what I wrote my thesis on - POWs in the American South during WWII.

I took a ton of new world slavery related classes in college (not intentionally, worked into my schedule type of thing) and could have concentrated on that but that's really not my thing and I didn't want that. I know that what happened in 1820 is technically no longer relevant to today, but I find Maryland to have been southern much later than that. I think this notion of it being northern is very very recent. Anyway, my point relating to history actually has a lot to do with the fact that Maryland's place is still debated - this is because if its history, without even considering anything else. I won't use my state as an example because apparently people don't like that, so I'll use New York. New York was never considered southern. It instantly makes New York and Maryland different in the sense of regional identity. Knowing its history, it's weird for Maryland to be a northern state to me. It was not always northern. I don't buy the whole modern cultural argument as much as I like the historical one. I understand the argument for Maryland being northern, I can appreciate it and discuss it, I could even argue for it, I just don't really like it. What I really don't like is the argument people make that VA is northern - they seceded and fought the US. They were rebels. The were part of a new country they created with the majority of what was considered the south at the time. I can't fathom Virginia suddenly being considered northern because of some transplants and DC influence. Maryland didn't secede, sure, but slavery had a lot of support regardless and I believe that if the capital weren't situated within Maryland, they would have. I don't know, this is just my opinion.

I'd appreciate not being torn apart for it (general statement). I don't think that's right to do to someone, especially when there is no clear answer here. Again, Maryland is not as simple as New York. Who would debate New York's regional identity? Next to no one. Maryland is debated for a reason, and that's its history. In my experience, even people in real life will give mixed answers on Maryland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lammius View Post
You've said this before but I have no idea what you mean.
Do we ever know what muppet means, or the methods of his logic? By now I almost have a soft spot for his suggestions as to what constitutes US regions... I see it and I'm like, "aw, that's just muppet being muppet. Michigan's the Midwest, but that's ok."
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Old 10-19-2014, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Germany
29 posts, read 26,985 times
Reputation: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Interesting that you are a history professor. It was my major not that long ago. I'm specifically interested in American history and even more specifically America's involvement in WWII. That's what I wrote my thesis on - POWs in the American South during WWII.

I took a ton of new world slavery related classes in college (not intentionally, worked into my schedule type of thing) and could have concentrated on that but that's really not my thing and I didn't want that. I know that what happened in 1820 is technically no longer relevant to today, but I find Maryland to have been southern much later than that. I think this notion of it being northern is very very recent. Anyway, my point relating to history actually has a lot to do with the fact that Maryland's place is still debated - this is because if its history, without even considering anything else. I won't use my state as an example because apparently people don't like that, so I'll use New York. New York was never considered southern. It instantly makes New York and Maryland different in the sense of regional identity. Knowing its history, it's weird for Maryland to be a northern state to me. It was not always northern. I don't buy the whole modern cultural argument as much as I like the historical one. I understand the argument for Maryland being northern, I can appreciate it and discuss it, I could even argue for it, I just don't really like it. What I really don't like is the argument people make that VA is northern - they seceded and fought the US. They were rebels. The were part of a new country they created with the majority of what was considered the south at the time. I can't fathom Virginia suddenly being considered northern because of some transplants and DC influence. Maryland didn't secede, sure, but slavery had a lot of support regardless and I believe that if the capital weren't situated within Maryland, they would have. I don't know, this is just my opinion. =
I don't think we are "tearing you apart" in the sense of laughing at you, but yes your arguments I'm afraid to say could at this point be classified as torn apart. Once again, even just above discussing history, you are somewhat inaccurate and are somewhat misquoting Hobbes (He didn't claim Maryland wasn't southern past 1820, for example, yet you seem eager to make it appear that he did - in other words you are erecting what they call a "strawman argument").

The capital wasn't in Maryland, it was in DC, like today, it's own district. Virginia had no issue seceding and taking their land back (that land Virginia took back never became DC again and is now called "Arlington, Virginia"). Yet Maryland voted by a landslide to remain a Union state. Let's not trivialize this.

Also, as for slavery, it was dying fast in Maryland. In Maryland about half of the black population was free, while the very highest proportion in any "solidly" southern state was Virginia at still not even 10%. In Delaware something like 80% of blacks were free. Keep in mind that when "freeing" blacks in New Jersey and New York, this usually meant selling blacks southwards to whiten the population. This is why the black population of these state dropped so dramatically between independence and the Civil War (when they were "freeing" the blacks). In Maryland and Delaware freeing blacks meant they actually stayed around and lived among the white populace in incredible numbers. Also, it worth pointing out that the city with the highest population of free blacks was not New York, or Boston (in practice an all-white city), or Philadelphia. The city with the most free blacks was Baltimore, and the main destination for runaway slaves in the southern US was not New York, or Canada, or Boston, it was in fact Baltimore. This doesn't even touch upon the fact that Marylanders - not the federal government or legislators - the citizens of Maryland including their soldiers busy fighting and dying for your cause of "the North" who voted to end slavery. Even New Jersey and Delawarean citizens were actually forced against their will to end slavery, while the common white citizens of Maryland democratically voted to end it themselves. I find that this is all overwhelming evidence that once again more than adequately addresses some of your claims.

It is probably also a fair assumption that a college History Professor living and employed in the state in question is a more reputable source on the historical affairs of said state. As an example, I am not anything more than an amateur mathematician at best, so I probably wouldn't challenge a college Mathematician when it comes to a problem he likely has analyzed many times. When it comes to history I, like you, am I very interested amateur "Historian". I am well read in the works of Shelby Foote, James MacPherson and Charles Royster, as I am sure you are as well. MacPherson's "Battle Cry of Freedom" is my personal favourite on the subject.

So the intention here isn't to insult or intimidate, it just appears that a remarkable number of people disagree with you and consider Maryland a northern state. In a direct manner I would like to express that it is a possibility that you are doing this to Marylanders and Delawareans right now. As for being insulted or bullied yourself, I can only say this: Sometimes when you are the only one saying something while consistently basing your convictions on biased or wrong historical facts, you might want to reconsider your position. This is what intelligent people do. When confronted with overwhelming evidence they change their stance and grow as a person by doing so. Right now you are in this position, and a rational peerson in your position being confronted with such evidence would take this into consideration.
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Old 10-19-2014, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,267,501 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelF1973 View Post
I don't think we are "tearing you apart" in the sense of laughing at you, but yes your arguments I'm afraid to say could at this point be classified as torn apart. Once again, even just above discussing history, you are somewhat inaccurate and are somewhat misquoting Hobbes (He didn't claim Maryland wasn't southern past 1820, for example, yet you seem eager to make it appear that he did - in other words you are erecting what they call a "strawman argument").

The capital wasn't in Maryland, it was in DC, like today, it's own district. Virginia had no issue seceding and taking their land back (that land Virginia took back never became DC again and is now called "Arlington, Virginia"). Yet Maryland voted by a landslide to remain a Union state. Let's not trivialize this.

Also, as for slavery, it was dying fast in Maryland. In Maryland about half of the black population was free, while the very highest proportion in any "solidly" southern state was Virginia at still not even 10%. In Delaware something like 80% of blacks were free. Keep in mind that when "freeing" blacks in New Jersey and New York, this usually meant selling blacks southwards to whiten the population. This is why the black population of these state dropped so dramatically between independence and the Civil War (when they were "freeing" the blacks). In Maryland and Delaware freeing blacks meant they actually stayed around and lived among the white populace in incredible numbers. Also, it worth pointing out that the city with the highest population of free blacks was not New York, or Boston (in practice an all-white city), or Philadelphia. The city with the most free blacks was Baltimore, and the main destination for runaway slaves in the southern US was not New York, or Canada, or Boston, it was in fact Baltimore. This doesn't even touch upon the fact that Marylanders - not the federal government or legislators - the citizens of Maryland including their soldiers busy fighting and dying for your cause of "the North" who voted to end slavery. Even New Jersey and Delawarean citizens were actually forced against their will to end slavery, while the common white citizens of Maryland democratically voted to end it themselves. I find that this is all overwhelming evidence that once again more than adequately addresses some of your claims.
Beat me to the punch. Looks like someone's been studying! You have great historical knowledge, I would give you an "A"

Seriously though, very few seem to know these extremely important facts, and simply look at a map that says "slave state" for Maryland and Delaware, yet when examining the nature of the state societies and economies they were clearly a mix of northern and southern. For example, the Baltimore voters elected to end slavery by something like a 2-1 margin in 1864 (in addition to voting for Lincoln). This is the polar opposite of Southern actions in 1864. If Baltimore were "Southern" as JerseyGirl defines, it would have taken up arms, seceded, raised countless regiments for the CSA and had a nice star added to the CSA flag. That's what Southern states did. Even states like Missouri and Kentucky raised rebel governments and were considered "occupied" by the CSA. But the CSA did not consider Maryland "occupied" Southern land like Kentucky or Missorui and hence they did not have stars (which represented the "southern states" for Maryland or Delaware. The Marylanders and Delawareans who did cross the Potomac and join the Virginians were widely mistrusted among the CSA army and viewed as opportunists. Much like Pennsylvania's Confederate general John Pemberton was viewed with great mistrust and also the way that the highest ranking military man in the entire Confederacy (None other than the New Yorker Samuel Cooper) was also viewed with suspicion.

P.S. "The Battle Cry Of Freedom" is "the" book to read. In my opinion it replaced Cattons "Stillness at Appamattox" as "the" book on the Civil War.
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:50 PM
Status: "Retired" (set 21 hours ago)
 
620 posts, read 688,966 times
Reputation: 244
Delaware started out as a Middle Colony, then later a Middle State and today, Delaware is a Mid-Atlantic state. The North and the South designations date back to the expansion of the US and the Civil War. Delaware was never southern in any form. Even though Delaware had multiple plans to abolish slavery before Civil War, but it never happened until sometime during the Civil War. No Jim Crow laws ever existed in Delaware either. Check out the PBS website about the rise and fall of Jim Crow and you'll see that Delaware never had Jim Crow laws. The great black migration from the southern states doesn't make Delaware a southern state. It just adds to the diversity of the state, which already had Italians, Irish, Germans, etc.
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:00 PM
 
89 posts, read 100,901 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Beat me to the punch. Looks like someone's been studying! You have great historical knowledge, I would give you an "A"

Seriously though, very few seem to know these extremely important facts, and simply look at a map that says "slave state" for Maryland and Delaware, yet when examining the nature of the state societies and economies they were clearly a mix of northern and southern. For example, the Baltimore voters elected to end slavery by something like a 2-1 margin in 1864 (in addition to voting for Lincoln). This is the polar opposite of Southern actions in 1864. If Baltimore were "Southern" as JerseyGirl defines, it would have taken up arms, seceded, raised countless regiments for the CSA and had a nice star added to the CSA flag. That's what Southern states did. Even states like Missouri and Kentucky raised rebel governments and were considered "occupied" by the CSA. But the CSA did not consider Maryland "occupied" Southern land like Kentucky or Missorui and hence they did not have stars (which represented the "southern states" for Maryland or Delaware. The Marylanders and Delawareans who did cross the Potomac and join the Virginians were widely mistrusted among the CSA army and viewed as opportunists. Much like Pennsylvania's Confederate general John Pemberton was viewed with great mistrust and also the way that the highest ranking military man in the entire Confederacy (None other than the New Yorker Samuel Cooper) was also viewed with suspicion.

P.S. "The Battle Cry Of Freedom" is "the" book to read. In my opinion it replaced Cattons "Stillness at Appamattox" as "the" book on the Civil War.
Missouri isn't Southern though and was never really occupied territory.
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Old 10-20-2014, 09:54 PM
 
781 posts, read 1,096,959 times
Reputation: 609
St. Louisan/nstl i see that you are at it again lol
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