U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-28-2014, 07:41 PM
 
56 posts, read 61,419 times
Reputation: 92

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by $mk8795 View Post
Regardless of opinions Maryland and Delaware are still Southern States....
Erhm, what gives you authority over anyone else? It might be a southern state for you, but it isn't for me. Contrary to what you say, it has EVERYTHING to do with opinion. That's why you're on a forum, right? To discuss opinions.

I'd agree that many parts of Maryland seem "southern," but I don't feel like I'm a southerner, and I'm from MD. Most of my friends don't think so either, although some of them do. Again, it has to do with opinion.

I know the problem you might have with that: MD was a slave state, so therefore it's southern. There's no argument. But it's not 1863. Cultures change. People change. I don't think it's clearly southern anymore. Just see all the polls we've had on this subject: people just don't agree with anyone else... Isn't that proof enough that it's not as clear-cut as you're making it out?

Please, attempt to have a logical discussion, rather than shut out other people. If you don't listen to others, you have no place on a forum.

My point is: it's not clearly a southern state, even though it might be more southern in some aspects or vice versa. Can you refute this? Can you provide evidence that EVERYONE (or the vast majority of people) thinks that Maryland is a southern state? Because if you can, if you can cite a source that supports your argument that everyone is of the same opinion as you are, then I concede that you are right, and that I'm a loon. But you can't, because a lot of people don't think MD is southern. There are many organizations (NWS, FBI, USDA and a bunch more) that don't agree with you. I 'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that you can't pass off your opinion as true.

Just tell me if I'm right or not: not everyone agrees with you, and MD's southern-ness isn't clear for a large proportion of Americans.

If you don't agree with me, it means you're not listening to others. Again, your opinion isn't wrong, but by no means are you unconditionally right just because you say so. People's opinions matter. Please accept that and provide support for your arguments, rather than justify yourself through a "because I said so" attitude.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-29-2014, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,436 posts, read 11,937,287 times
Reputation: 10542
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Plenty of people have said that culture doesn't stop at state lines. Nobody's really arguing over that. What I've said (and I believe eschaton has said the same) is that Maryland is a southern state that doesn't feel culturally southern anymore. It's the same way Miami is not exempted from the South simply because it has a more transient character than it did in the past.
Yeah, this was basically my point. Plantation slavery was a big thing in Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore - not a dying institution like it was in Delaware. In 1860 half the black population was still slaves. The Union Army basically engaged in a hostile occupation of Baltimore to stop the city from rebelling - placing artillery on Federal Hill and threatening to level the city at the first sign of revolt. While unlike most other southern states blacks never lost the right to vote (Democrats tried on three different occasions), it was a Jim Crow state with public segregation, and interracial marriage was banned through to the middle of the 20th century.

The DC suburbs are not particularly southern any more - although it's arguable that places like Prince Georges County - the black suburbs - do have a lot of southern characteristics (certainly the local black population is a lot more southern feeling than in metros to the north). The remaining rural parts of southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore are southern feeling (for that matter, so is much of Delaware south of the Canal). And the Western panhandle is northern Appalachian - whatever you call it - and not too different from nearby areas of West Virginia, Southwestern Pennsylvania, and Virginia. As for the Baltimore metro - I'm not sure what you'd call it. It has some northern and some southern characteristics, and many of the working-class whites actually migrated from Appalachia in the early 20th century.

Regardless, I don't know if this makes Maryland a Southern state. But I'm pretty sure it's enough to say it's not Northeastern. Delaware is more of a mix, because the northern third is basically indistinguishable from the Philly suburbs, but the southern 2/3rds (below the canal - "Lower and Slower") is actually fairly similar to any part of "Tidewater" Virginia, once you get outside of Dover or the beach towns.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 08:38 AM
 
620 posts, read 687,908 times
Reputation: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Yeah, this was basically my point. Plantation slavery was a big thing in Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore - not a dying institution like it was in Delaware. In 1860 half the black population was still slaves. The Union Army basically engaged in a hostile occupation of Baltimore to stop the city from rebelling - placing artillery on Federal Hill and threatening to level the city at the first sign of revolt. While unlike most other southern states blacks never lost the right to vote (Democrats tried on three different occasions), it was a Jim Crow state with public segregation, and interracial marriage was banned through to the middle of the 20th century.

The DC suburbs are not particularly southern any more - although it's arguable that places like Prince Georges County - the black suburbs - do have a lot of southern characteristics (certainly the local black population is a lot more southern feeling than in metros to the north). The remaining rural parts of southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore are southern feeling (for that matter, so is much of Delaware south of the Canal). And the Western panhandle is northern Appalachian - whatever you call it - and not too different from nearby areas of West Virginia, Southwestern Pennsylvania, and Virginia. As for the Baltimore metro - I'm not sure what you'd call it. It has some northern and some southern characteristics, and many of the working-class whites actually migrated from Appalachia in the early 20th century.

Regardless, I don't know if this makes Maryland a Southern state. But I'm pretty sure it's enough to say it's not Northeastern. Delaware is more of a mix, because the northern third is basically indistinguishable from the Philly suburbs, but the southern 2/3rds (below the canal - "Lower and Slower") is actually fairly similar to any part of "Tidewater" Virginia, once you get outside of Dover or the beach towns.
What about Southern New Jersey (excluding the Philly suburbs in the Northwest), which is similar to the southern 2/3rds of Delaware (undeveloped land, farms, low population, beaches, etc.)? Is it also similar to Tidewater Virginia?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,436 posts, read 11,937,287 times
Reputation: 10542
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
What about Southern New Jersey (excluding the Philly suburbs in the Northwest) and Eastern Maryland, which both of them are similar to the southern 2/3rds of Delaware (undeveloped land, farms, low population, beaches, etc.)? Are both also similar to Tidewater Virginia?
Southern New Jersey is not really southern. Burlington, Camden and Gloucester counties are just Philly suburbs for the most part. The Jersey Shore is pretty culturally/politically similar (white and fairly conservative) all the way from South Amboy all the way to Cape May, with the exception of Atlantic City itself, which has a large black/Latino population who works in the casinos. I do think that Salem and Cumberland counties have a very slight touch of the south though. They remain largely agricultural, and actually have a rural black population, which is a rarity in northern states. The local dialect is not Philadelphia English, and is somewhat similar to much of the Delmarva. Still, I'd just call it the northernmost place with a southern influence. And it's just two counties (and sparsely populated ones) at that.

As for the Eastern Shore, there is no doubt that it's the most southern portion of Maryland by far.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Yeah, this was basically my point. Plantation slavery was a big thing in Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore - not a dying institution like it was in Delaware. In 1860 half the black population was still slaves. The Union Army basically engaged in a hostile occupation of Baltimore to stop the city from rebelling - placing artillery on Federal Hill and threatening to level the city at the first sign of revolt. While unlike most other southern states blacks never lost the right to vote (Democrats tried on three different occasions), it was a Jim Crow state with public segregation, and interracial marriage was banned through to the middle of the 20th century.

The DC suburbs are not particularly southern any more - although it's arguable that places like Prince Georges County - the black suburbs - do have a lot of southern characteristics (certainly the local black population is a lot more southern feeling than in metros to the north). The remaining rural parts of southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore are southern feeling (for that matter, so is much of Delaware south of the Canal). And the Western panhandle is northern Appalachian - whatever you call it - and not too different from nearby areas of West Virginia, Southwestern Pennsylvania, and Virginia. As for the Baltimore metro - I'm not sure what you'd call it. It has some northern and some southern characteristics, and many of the working-class whites actually migrated from Appalachia in the early 20th century.

Regardless, I don't know if this makes Maryland a Southern state. But I'm pretty sure it's enough to say it's not Northeastern. Delaware is more of a mix, because the northern third is basically indistinguishable from the Philly suburbs, but the southern 2/3rds (below the canal - "Lower and Slower") is actually fairly similar to any part of "Tidewater" Virginia, once you get outside of Dover or the beach towns.
I wish there were a way to make a post "sticky." This should be the post everyone refers to from now on this topic.

The End.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 09:38 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,269 posts, read 19,560,434 times
Reputation: 13045
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I wish there were a way to make a post "sticky." This should be the post everyone refers to from now on this topic.
I've never heard anyone disagree that once upon a time Maryland had more southern characteristics than it does today.

The disagreement is related to modern times. Not all of us live strictly in the past.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I've never heard anyone disagree that once upon a time Maryland had more southern characteristics than it does today.

The disagreement is related to modern times. Not all of us live strictly in the past.
Did you not read his entire post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Regardless, I don't know if this makes Maryland a Southern state. But I'm pretty sure it's enough to say it's not Northeastern.
I was agreeing with the post in its entirety. Not just the parts relating to the history of the state (which does impact the present).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 10:15 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,269 posts, read 19,560,434 times
Reputation: 13045
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Did you not read his entire post?



I was agreeing with the post in its entirety. Not just the parts relating to the history of the state (which does impact the present).
The vast majority of Maryland residents live in the Baltimore-DC combined statistical area. This is also by far where the wealth economy of the state is concentrated. If someone moves to Maryland, chances are they will very likely live and work in this area - particularly in the most built-up parts of it - and not in a sparsely populated area of the rural eastern shore. That is mainly for catching some waves at the beach once a year.

So, central Maryland is what is mainly relevant to modern times as far as the cultural and regional identity of the state goes. The eastern shore has some interesting wildlife, marshland and marinas though.

Last edited by BigCityDreamer; 07-29-2014 at 10:36 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
The vast majority of Maryland residents live in the Baltimore-DC combined statistical area. This is also by far where the wealth economy of the state is concentrated. If someone moves to Maryland, chances are they will very likely live and work in this area - particularly in the most built-up parts of it - and not in a sparsely populated area of the rural eastern shore.

So, central Maryland is what is mainly relevant to modern times as far as the cultural and regional identity of the state goes.
He was talking about Maryland as a whole, which includes Central Maryland.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 10:49 AM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,518,901 times
Reputation: 17606
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Southern New Jersey is not really southern. Burlington, Camden and Gloucester counties are just Philly suburbs for the most part. The Jersey Shore is pretty culturally/politically similar (white and fairly conservative) all the way from South Amboy all the way to Cape May, with the exception of Atlantic City itself, which has a large black/Latino population who works in the casinos. I do think that Salem and Cumberland counties have a very slight touch of the south though. They remain largely agricultural, and actually have a rural black population, which is a rarity in northern states. The local dialect is not Philadelphia English, and is somewhat similar to much of the Delmarva. Still, I'd just call it the northernmost place with a southern influence. And it's just two counties (and sparsely populated ones) at that.

As for the Eastern Shore, there is no doubt that it's the most southern portion of Maryland by far.
I've never considered any part of New Jersey southern. I've lived here my whole life, in the northern portion yes, but I've gone to Cape May yearly nearly my whole life as well and have never heard the suggestion anything south Jersey is southern. Cape May area, as well as the southern shore, is a mix of both Philly and New York/Nee Jersey visitors, and a lot of Canadians as well. I know that southwest Jersey is a bit more "rural" or whatever, but still - never heard the possibility. The suggestion is insane. NJ is thoroughly northeastern, at all its points.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top