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Old 07-30-2014, 09:07 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,251 posts, read 19,550,442 times
Reputation: 13018

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Yes, because it's historically been a Southern state until pretty recently when the shift occurred (and that shift has not been completely Northern). It's hard for people to overcome a change like that. In my NJ school system, we were never taught that MD is Northern. We were taught it is Southern. It's always been acknowledged that it's at the very top of the South, not as Southern as like Mississippi, but it's Southern.
It's a little strange that a school system would teach that a border state is part of the south. But I guess anything is possible.

The important point is that it's very true there has been a shift, as you mention. Washington DC is now the 2nd most dominant city and largest combined statistical area in the northeast. In fact, it almost has the same population as New Jersey. This does not sit well with some people. But you can't stop change. :-)
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,247,479 times
Reputation: 11726
This is an excerpt from the auto-biography of Reginald Lewis, a Baltimore native, who went on to become the first African American billionaire.

Quote:
The Baltimore of the 40s and 50s was a city of gentility, slow living and racial segregation. No one had heard of Martin Luther King..or civil rights...or integration. As in other Southern cities of the time, there were many things Black people in Baltimore couldn't do. They couldn't try on clothes at many downtown stores. They couldn't eat in certain restaurants or go to certain movie theaters.
It's interesting how a city that's only 80 minutes South of Philadelphia could have had such a radically different feel.
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,247,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
The important point is that it's very true there has been a shift, as you mention. Washington DC is now the 2nd most dominant city and largest combined statistical area in the northeast. In fact, it almost has the same population as New Jersey. This does not sit well with some people. But you can't stop change.
Well, if you're going to use official Census designations, then you should also use official Census regions. For purposes of Census tabulations, all of that government lard you guys are getting fat from is reflected in the GDP figures for the South.

You also can't say the "Census doesn't matter" on the one hand and then rely on the Census definition of "New England + Middle Atlantic = Northeast" on the other. You're essentially conflating the historical and academic definition of the "Middle States" and the more colloquial one that includes Maryland, West Virginia, and Virginia (and possibly Northeastern NC according to some). You can dismiss the Census, but you can't then go running back to it when it suits your argument.
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,247,479 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I lived in the DC area, and honestly the suburbs felt like they could have been just about anywhere which lacked a real strong regional identity. They didn't really feel like "Northeastern" suburbs in the slightest.
I don't really get this either. The working-class inner ring suburbs of the DC area are almost all Black or Hispanic. There really are no working-class white suburbs in the DC area. You would have to venture out to the more exurban areas of Prince William, Loudoun, Calvert, Charles or Frederick to really uncover that element. And when you do find it, it's very different from New Jersey where many towns are composed of Irish and Italians.

Obviously, there's no Northeastern equivalent of Prince George's County. The most comparable place to that is Dekalb County, Georgia.

Overall, the DC suburbs are very sanitized. Lots of new, shiny construction. No discernible regional accent. No real ties to DC other than work for most white people (unlike Philly or New York where many people have the "old neighborhood"). It's just standard suburbia that completely lacks all of the ethnic flavor found in NYC or Boston suburbs.
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,263,797 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
In 1860, the state voted for Breckenridge, the secession candidate, as it was a large slave-holding state. I
Yet Maryland overwhelmingly voted 53-14 to STAY in the Union when the CSA was being formed in 1861.



But I suppose we can't use that part because it isn't as attention grabbing as pointing out that Maryland voted in line with southern states in the 1860 election before push actually came to shove. We might as well call New Jersey southern since it still had slavery in 1864 when the Maryland state government had abolished it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Shortly thereafter, the state became an inaugural member of the Southern Legislative Council and then later a member of the Southern Governors Association (where it remains today).
So is Puerto Rico - so that is clear evidence that Puerto Rico definitely must be southern, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
In a "historical sense," it was certainly southern. In 1860, the state voted for Breckenridge, the secession candidate, as it was a large slave-holding state. In 1939, the state legislature adopted "Maryland, My Maryland" as the state song which exhorts Marylanders to "spurn the Northern scum." Shortly thereafter, the state became an inaugural member of the Southern Legislative Council and then later a member of the Southern Governors Association (where it remains today). And its public schools weren't desegregated until Brown in 1954. Even after that decision, there were many sit ins and civil rights protests throughout the 60s because Blacks weren't allowed to dine in "Whites Only" establishments. So yes, it was clearly southern...just without all of the ridiculous racial violence that was seen in places farther South.

Here is a Baltimore Sun article on the Civil Rights Movement in Baltimore.

Store Counters | 50 years ago, department store lunch counters opened to blacks - Baltimore Sun
Segregation directly correlated with the white to black population ratio wherever it was in the country. Few blacks lived in the north before the Great Migration and those that did were restricted to living in certain neighborhoods, going to certain schools, and working certain jobs. Blacks weren't numerous enough to warrant intervention by the state governments or state funding for separate schools. Even the northern states that claim to have "forbidden" school separation still engaged in defacto school segregation by neighborhoods which were of course aligned along racial lines. Massachusetts is a great example, where Boston remained segregated until the 1980's with the busing situation.

It is always interesting to see northerners making it sound like segregation and racism didn't exist in the north, when it was just as prevalent anywhere that there were actually significant numbers of black people. Where where all the the mixed race northerners in 1950? Of that's right, whites and blacks in the north were segregated so they rarely mixed!


Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
This is an excerpt from the auto-biography of Reginald Lewis, a Baltimore native, who went on to become the first African American billionaire.

It's interesting how a city that's only 80 minutes South of Philadelphia could have had such a radically different feel.
Unfortunately, Reginald Lewis and his observations of Baltimore are not the final authority on Maryland. Why don't we lay out the political, linguistic, and cultural realities of the state, and you let me know if you can counter them and seriously classify Maryland as southern. Here are the cultural, linguistic, political, and historical facts:

- Is solidly liberal voting, like most of the northeast. Zero southern states are solidly democratic; instead the south is the American bastion of conservatism. Even southern states like South Carolina and Alabama with larger black per capita populations are still solid red states.
- Among the richest states, like most of the northeast. Southern states generally the poorest in America.
- Among the most educated states, like most of the northeast. Southern states generally make up the worst performing states in America.
- Voted democratically to legalize gay marriage, like most of the northeast. Southern states outright ban gay marriage and any forms of gay unions.
- Overwhelmingly speaks with a midland accent, which doesn't exist in the south, but is shared with Pennsylvania, Southern New Jersey, and Ohio.
- Is one of the most densely populated states, a characteristic of the northeast.
- Sided with the United States during the Civil War, and had 2/3 of it's white troops fight against the Confederate States. Including black troops over 80% of Maryland soldiers fought for the Union.
- Had a state government that abolished slavery (in 1864) like all northern states except New Jersey (which was resisted abolishing slavery until it was forced to by the federal government in 1866); southern states were forced by the federal government to abolish slavery through the passage of the 13th amendment.
- In 1861 The Maryland legislature also voted 53-14 to stay part of the US BEFORE Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and the US army began marching through Baltimore towards the south. The argument that Maryland would have seceded from the US without Lincoln's intervention is ridiculous unless you consider 1/5 of votes a majority.

^ Wow sounds really southern!

Last edited by hobbesdj; 07-30-2014 at 10:16 AM..
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Center City
6,857 posts, read 7,804,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
And its [MD's] public schools weren't desegregated until Brown in 1954.
Guess Massachusetts is also southern: "The Boston busing crisis (19741988) was a series of protests and riots that occurred in Boston, Massachusetts in response to the passing of the 1965 Racial Imbalance Act, which ordered public schools in the state to desegregate." Boston busing crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Well wait . . . most of the rioting did occur in South Boston:


Boston Busing Crisis - YouTube
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:37 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,137 posts, read 9,909,375 times
Reputation: 6424
Default Maryland and New Jersey

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
It's a little strange that a school system would teach that a border state is part of the south. But I guess anything is possible.

The important point is that it's very true there has been a shift, as you mention. Washington DC is now the 2nd most dominant city and largest combined statistical area in the northeast. In fact, it almost has the same population as New Jersey. This does not sit well with some people. But you can't stop change. :-)
Going by memory of what I learned in school in New York, Maryland was considered a Southern colony during the American Revolution but considered "a border state" during the Civil War. I believe that a border state was considered a Southern state that did not leave the Union and tried to stay neutral.

So at least from the pov of New York, Maryland was Southern until at least the Civil War.

A couple of people mentioned slavery in New Jersey during the Civil War. There was about 18 slaves in the entire state by 1860. Compare that to 1,798 for Delaware and 87,189 for Maryland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery...tion_of_slaves (distribution of slaves)
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:40 AM
 
342 posts, read 395,247 times
Reputation: 503
I'm not American and have lived on both coasts and I have never heard of Maryland being the south until this thread. I live here now and sorry but Maryland is definitely the northeast. Like I said I am not even American so I dont have a dog in this fight you must be joking when you call Maryland the south. JerseyGirl it sounds like are applying the one drop rule to northerness lol. Maryland even sound like Pennsylvanians not southerners saying things like wooder and pronouncing their "o's" funny. Virginia is the south and Maryland is the north thats what Ive always seen until this thread. I see nothing other than a handful of anecdotes and isolated examples that could lead someone to possibly consider Maryland the south. From my perspective Maryland is a pretty solidly northeastern state, and I honestly culd not care less about this north/south thing.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:58 AM
 
25 posts, read 19,595 times
Reputation: 32
The Northeast:

New England
New York
Pennsylvania
New Jersey
Maryland
Delaware


I have lived in many parts of the US as well as in Canada and briefly in Europe....I never knew anyone considered Maryland or Delaware southern. Ive only heard of Maryland as a regular northeastern state like New Jersey. Personally I find nothing southern about that place and that sounds a bit out there. Kind of like someone calling Illinois or Ohio southern. Now Virginia - THATs a southern state.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:25 PM
 
2,331 posts, read 3,807,142 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Actually, most Marylanders take it for granted that Maryland is mainly a northeastern state nowadays. Maryland falls within the northeast BosWash corridor. The "mid-Atlantic" designation again simply means lower northeast. It's not something that is debated or talked about much.

On the other hand, the objection to this identity for Maryland seems to come more from people who live in states north of Maryland.
Despite your opinion it does not ever remove the Fact that Maryland is a Southern state. Its known that there are some bitter folx from the deep south that refuse to be associated with Maryland no matter what but thats their psychological hang up.
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