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Old 08-05-2014, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Center City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Do we always have to be so silly on this North/South topic? How many slaves were working in Connecticut tobacco fields in 1860?
You tell me. You're the one who now seems to feel slavery is the end-all/be-all of what defines a northern or southern state. (Before it seemed to be when schools ended segregation - and didn't experience riots in doing so - until we learned that school segregation was legal and in place in Mass until 1974 . . . crickets.) Anyhow, what is the cut-off in the number of slaves a state held before it is designated as north or south? Is there a definitive number? Is a state northern if it had more than 100 but less than 1000 salves? And is a state's regional designation determined by the raw number of slaves it held or as a percentage of its population? And does it matter when a state legally ended slavery? Is it OK if slavery was legal in a state until before 1800? Until 1830? Until 1840? Until 1848 (when CT abolished slavery)? What numbers were definitive in which states and at which time in history?

If slavery is the factor that decides a state's southernness or northernness, it is a lot more complex that it might seem - certainly not a "yes/no they had slaves" deal. At least this whole matter of slavery is not so cut and dried to me. I'll be curious to see what calculus you use to come up with your equation.

Last edited by Pine to Vine; 08-05-2014 at 05:28 PM.. Reason: typos and grammar - per usual
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Old 08-05-2014, 05:10 PM
 
2,331 posts, read 3,806,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
Post this in the Delaware forum and see what sort of feedback you get.
I'll get the pop corn ready...
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Terramaria
774 posts, read 841,357 times
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Here's my real analysis.

My first experiences with what a "Northeast region" was were based on my second grade teacher and the electronic video game Socrates on its State to State cartridge. It included DC, MD, DE and all states North and East (with my second grade teacher including WV) as Northeastern. My first experience for those states not being Northeastern were in my middle school history class that had some articles describing Maryland/DE/DC as southern. I understood eventually that certain regions are based on opinons on whether the present should be included, or if history/heritage should be included, as the Census Bureau considers. The problem is that what people are first taught by others is what they are led to believe even if others' opinions vary, unless if a large-scale survey/poll convinces them to change. People like $mk8795 is only one user, and in order to have a more accurate view, must take into account all of the players at hand.

That said, the Northeast as we know it wasn't originally used until around the War of 1812 after the Northwest Territory had become estabilished as Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan were or fast becoming states. Before then, what was to become the Northeast didn't exist. The original three regions of the country were New England (often called the Eastern States, which today usually refers to both the Northeast and South Atlantic), Middle Colonies/States, and the South, with the west being just territories. When Kentucky and Tennessee became states, they were known as western since for awhile they were the only states west of the Appalachians. As slavery became a better known sectional issue and more states were formed, those states were soon into Northwest and Southwestern, with most of the Louisiana Purchase area simply part of the Western Territories. Around this time, the Northeast had started to comprise the New England and still widely used Middle States (minus Delaware due to Slavery/ties with Maryland). It would mean PA/NJ upwards, as many sources still do today. Eventually, Middle States evolved into Middle Atlantic. Traditionally, it included Delaware, but a few sources such as the Census simply grouped it with MD and states further south. That said, Delaware was the only state that allowed slavery as late as the war that didn't border a Confederate State; I don't even consider it a "border" state for that matter since it never shared a border with a state that joined the Confederacy. The problem for trying to expand the Northeast seemingly is at the expense of preserving heritage. Regions tend to be based on historical traits that are averaged out over time. That said, I feel a greater bond between the Northeast and the South Atlantic in certain aspects than I do with the South Atlantic and the rest of the south. Much of the regional divide has to do with migration patterns, time zones, and the like. The USA is far wider than it is tall, and in today's society has much more of a meridional change than a latitudinal one.

While Maryland has never been considered Northeastern prior to the Civil War, there have been a few sources classifying it into the Middle region, such as this example from 1805. Note this was an early use of "Northeastern States", and it only referred to New England.

Medical Repository of Original Essays and Intelligence Relative to Physic ... - Samuel Latham Mitchell, Edward Miller - Google Books

With that said, I'd give Delaware (along with the traditional nine states) to the Northeast. When I vacation in Rehobeth, I see more PA/NJ/NY plates than I do MD/VA/NC ones (not by much but still around a 60/40 divide).

Maryland (along with DC and Northern Virginia) on the other hand is what I call "Southern Mid-Atlantic", having some similarities to Northeastern "Northern Mid-Atlantic" states as above, still has southern culture in its rural areas east of I-95. USA Today even considers its "southern Mid-Atlantic" as part of its greater Southeast region. Remember that DC was originally built in a fairly rural area with just a couple towns that were southern in its day (Georgetown and Alexandria), and was basically transplants from the start. I consider DC "General American with international influence founded on southern bones". While Baltimore's southern heritage is mostly forgotten and is scarred with just a few reminders, you can't deny its history.

One thing is for sure, you can't argue against THE FACT that Maryland IS a Southern State (well County)- in Liberia. No arguing whatsoever in that nation. Another thing, Baltimore is definitely a Southern City (or town)- in Ireland.

Last edited by Borntoolate85; 08-06-2014 at 07:08 AM..
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Old 08-06-2014, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
You tell me. You're the one who now seems to feel slavery is the end-all/be-all of what defines a northern or southern state. (Before it seemed to be when schools ended segregation - and didn't experience riots in doing so - until we learned that school segregation was legal and in place in Mass until 1974 . . . crickets.)
Why do people love to tell me "You're the one who says" or "You're the one who believes..." and then not quote me. I'm not arguing with strawmen today (or ever).

And I never said anything about school segregation (though you fail to point out the difference between de jure and de facto discrimination). Jim Crow was more than school segregation; it was a system where Black people (that would have included me) had to drink from separate water fountains, could not try on clothes in stores, could not sit at countertops, had to ride in segregated train cars, had to sit at the back of the bus, had separate facilities for everything including movie theaters, etc. It's not simply about whether a place was racist (most places were during the 1960s). It's about a culture of total and complete separation, humiliation and subjugation. And it was felt most intensely in places that had large Black populations. The North didn't really experience this because there weren't as many Blacks.

I mean, there's a reason why the Mason-Dixon line holds special relevance for many African Americans. To white people, it probably seems arbitrary, but for Blacks that wasn't the case at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine View Post
If slavery is the factor that decides a state's southernness or northernness, it is a lot more complex that it might seem - certainly not a "yes/no they had slaves" deal. At least this whole matter of slavery is not so cut and dried to me. I'll be curious to see what calculus you use to come up with your equation.
Slavery is certainly a major factor, particularly when a state has had such a historically large African American population that's had such a large impact on its politics and overall culture. Slavery, after all, was the reason why Maryland voted for Breckenridge instead of Lincoln in 1860. I don't know what precise number of slaves were required in order to change a state's political dynamics, but suffice it to say that the institution of slavery was strong enough in both Maryland and Delaware that Abraham Lincoln failed to win a single county in either.

And it's not like Maryland stopped being southern after 1865. As I mentioned before, it was one of the first members of the Southern Legislative Council and the Southern Governors Association (let's not hear your ridiculous counter about Puerto Rico again, which didn't join until the 70s). If that's not evidence of southern heritage, then nothing is.
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Old 08-06-2014, 07:48 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Why do people love to tell me "You're the one who says" or "You're the one who believes..." and then not quote me. I'm not arguing with strawmen today (or ever).

And I never said anything about school segregation (though you fail to point out the difference between de jure and de facto discrimination). Jim Crow was more than school segregation; it was a system where Black people (that would have included me) had to drink from separate water fountains, could not try on clothes in stores, could not sit at countertops, had separate facilities for everything including movie theaters, etc. It's not simply about whether a place was racist (most places were during the 1960s). It's about a culture of total and complete separation and subjugation. And it was felt most intensely in places that had large Black populations. The North didn't really experience this because there weren't as many Blacks.
Note that Brown vs Board of Ed was of a school in Kansas. Not a state with a large black population. Obviously not a typical northern state, but more of a border state. Culture and settlement by southerners was a factor later rather just black population. The southern parts of Appalachia are definitely southern with or without black people.

Quote:
Slavery is certainly a major factor, particularly when a state has had such a historically large African American population that's had such a large impact on its politics and overall culture. Slavery, after all, was the reason why Maryland voted for Breckenridge instead of Lincoln in 1860. I don't know what precise number of slaves were required in order to change a state's political dynamics, but suffice it to say that the institution of slavery was strong enough in both Maryland and Delaware that Abraham Lincoln failed to win a single county in either.
With migrations, I wonder how many (white) Marylanders are descended from the original residents? Yes, I'm putting white because whites dominated the political culture. Maryland was different from most southern states in that Abraham Lincoln was on the ballot. The only state that left the union that had Lincoln on the ballot was Virginia, where he won 1.1% of the vote (the ballot wasn't secret, so that probably damped Lincoln votes in both states). Lincoln vote nearly follows the Mason-Dixon line. New England and New England influenced areas (upstate NY and parts of the Great Lakes) really Lincoln. Vermont voted 76% for Lincoln, more lopsided than it voted for Obama. The West Coast voted a lot less for Lincoln than most of the North, maybe because it had a lot of southern settlers at the time.

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Old 08-06-2014, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Note that Brown vs Board of Ed was of a school in Kansas. Not a state with a large black population. Obviously not a typical northern state, but more of a border state. Culture and settlement by southerners was a factor later rather just black population. The southern parts of Appalachia are definitely southern with or without black people.
That was why I said that Jim Crow was more than school segregation. Brown applied to state action (14th Amendment). Bolling applied to federal action (5th Amendment). But those decisions didn't go far enough because there was still the problem of motels, diners, theaters, restaurants, swimming pools and other facilities banning blacks altogether. Fortunately, the 13th Amendment allows the federal government to pursue private actors who discriminate on the basis of race, and that was what became the foundation of civil rights legislation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
With migrations, I wonder how many (white) Marylanders are descended from the original residents?
Does "original residents" mean extending back to the charter granted to Calvert? Or do you simply mean how many whites are multi-generational Marylanders?
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,419 posts, read 11,923,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Does "original residents" mean extending back to the charter granted to Calvert? Or do you simply mean how many whites are multi-generational Marylanders?
As I said upthread, a lot of working-class white Baltimore is descended from Appalachians who migrated there to work in the mills, taking the role which in many other places was filled by "white ethnics." Of course, many Midwestern cities (Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton, even Chicago to a small extent) also experienced an influx of southern Appalachians, so arguably this doesn't make a place Southern per se.
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
As I said upthread, a lot of working-class white Baltimore is descended from Appalachians who migrated there to work in the mills, taking the role which in many other places was filled by "white ethnics." Of course, many Midwestern cities (Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton, even Chicago to a small extent) also experienced an influx of southern Appalachians, so arguably this doesn't make a place Southern per se.
It's not like it took poor whites from Appalachia to make it southern. That influx didn't begin in earnest until the 1940s. Baltimore joined the SGA in 1939 (and later the SLC in 1947), the same year "Maryland, My Maryland" became the state song (which some are now embarassed about).

By "original residents," I was just wondering how far back he meant.
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:14 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,988 posts, read 41,959,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That was why I said that Jim Crow was more than school segregation. Brown applied to state action (14th Amendment). Bolling applied to federal action (5th Amendment). But those decisions didn't go far enough because there was still the problem of motels, diners, theaters, restaurants, swimming pools and other facilities banning blacks altogether. Fortunately, the 13th Amendment allows the federal government to pursue private actors who discriminate on the basis of race, and that was what became the foundation of civil rights legislation.
I don't think too many northern states had segregated schools, though at times residential segregation created the same result (Boston, Chicago) but there wasn't a specifically white school and a black states. I think you meant the 14th Amendment not the 13th Amendment, the latter was limited to banning slavery.

[qutoe]Does "original residents" mean extending back to the charter granted to Calvert? Or do you simply mean how many whites are multi-generational Marylanders?[/quote]

I meant pre-civil war residents, say 1860 since that was the time we were talking about. I meant how many were connected to the time when slavery was legal (and shaped the political culture).
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I don't think too many northern states had segregated schools, though at times residential segregation created the same result (Boston, Chicago) but there wasn't a specifically white school and a black states. I think you meant the 14th Amendment not the 13th Amendment, the latter was limited to banning slavery.
A lot northern states did have segregated schools. However, many desegregated before Brown. Northeast High School, I believe, was the first public high school in Philadelphia to desegregate. Central must have desegregated shortly thereafter since Alain Locke (born in 1885) graduated from there in 1902.

And no, I meant the 13th Amendment. The 14th Amendment covers state action and the 5th Amendment covers federal action. A lot of people forget that opinions in Brown v. Board and Bolling vs. Sharpe were issued in the same year. But nobody really paid attention to the latter because it only applied to the federal government.

After Brown, there was still the problem of diners, apartment rentals, motels, etc. denying Black people. So the Supreme Court interpreted the 13th Amendment very broadly to apply to private discrimination (but only on account of race).

Quote:
In the 1960’s however, the Court reversed itself and held that Section 2 of the Amendment gave Congress the power to abolish “all badges and incidents of slavery.” Since private discrimination based on race was viewed as a continuation of the harms of slavery, Congress had the power to prohibit private discrimination based on race. The Court held that under the two statutes passed pursuant to the Thirteenth Amendment, a landlord could not refuse to rent to a black person, Jones v. Alfred H. Mayer Co., and a private school could not refuse to admit a black child, Runyon v. McCrary.

In one sense, Congressional power under the Thirteenth Amendment is very broad, in that it can cover almost all kinds of private activities. But it is also narrow, in that it may only be used against racial discrimination, and not against other forms of discrimination, such as gender or age.
Prohibiting Private Discrimination

That was the whole entire point of the sit-ins of the 1960s. It's not like Brown was this magic bullet that solved the segregation problem. Many schools were already segregated anyway (in northern cities that didn't have de jure segregation), and if they weren't, whites started to leave once Blacks came. The bigger problem was that Blacks were being treated as second-class citizens in every aspect of life. If you were caught drinking at a "Whites Only" fountain, someone would grab you and throw you on the ground (or worse). That was just as big a problem as school segregation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
I meant pre-civil war residents, say 1860 since that was the time we were talking about. I meant how many were connected to the time when slavery was legal (and shaped the political culture).
I don't think it's just slavery that shaped political culture.
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