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Old 08-07-2014, 08:50 AM
 
5,721 posts, read 4,637,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Using rowhouses as an indicator would also make Richmond a northeastern city.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Richm...=12,94.51,,0,0

Having rowhouses can't automatically make a city northeastern. DC and Baltimore have had rowhouses since the late 19th Century (if not earlier for Baltimore) and they were southern cities at least up until the 1960s (documentation already provided upthread). So the only thing that could have changed them from southern to northeastern is a huge migration of transplants from the Northeast bringing northeastern culture with them.

The problem with the "northern by migration" theory is that there are more migrants from the South than the Northeast and Midwest combined. The question, then, is whether a combination of transplants from Tennessee, Arizona, Texas, Ohio, and California can make a place culturally "northeastern"?
FWIW WV gets incorrectly labeled as strictly a Southern state but it's generally easier for people that don't know any better to just lump it into that category. It's the only state, except possibly our neighbor VA, where the north turns into the south and there is a dividing line that you can spot as you drive through. About the top 1/2 of WV doesn't even have a southern accent and geographically parts of WV are farther north than Baltimore and D.C.

Northern WV was settled due to NE to SW migration and east to west migration in the 1800's and earlier via roads such as old Route 40. Rowhouses are very prevalent in parts of WV as are the old world style mill houses where there's just a door that dumps you right onto a sidewalk on a city street. In the end IMO it's impossible to label WV or VA either one as completely southern. Southern parts of WV were settled by people from the Carolinas not everywhere in the country was settled due to migration from NE and East.
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76 View Post
FWIW WV gets incorrectly labeled as strictly a Southern state but it's generally easier for people that don't know any better to just lump it into that category. It's the only state, except possibly our neighbor VA, where the north turns into the south and there is a dividing line that you can spot as you drive through. About the top 1/2 of WV doesn't even have a southern accent and geographically parts of WV are farther north than Baltimore and D.C.

Northern WV was settled due to NE to SW migration and east to west migration in the 1800's via roads such as old Route 40. Rowhouses are very prevalent in parts of WV as are the old English style mill houses where there's just a door that dumps you right onto a sidewalk on a city street. In the end IMO it's impossible to label WV or VA either one as completely southern.
Interesting history.

I was only commenting on the "northern transplants have taken over" claim that's often made on this Board. I fail to see how migrants from Alabama, Texas, SW Virginia, and North Carolina contribute to the "northeastern" feel of the state.
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Using rowhouses as an indicator would also make Richmond a northeastern city.
Not to mention Charleston, Savannah, and even New Orleans. And in the Midwest, Cincinnati and Saint Louis.

Plus a lot of northeastern cities don't have rowhouses. They're all-but absent in new England except in Boston (there are a few blocks here and there, but no rowhouse neighborhoods). Upstate NY lacks them except in the Albany area. As does most of Pennsylvania west of SEPA/the Lehigh Valley (with Pittsburgh the main exception)
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,483 posts, read 10,490,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Using rowhouses as an indicator would also make Richmond a northeastern city.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Richm...=12,94.51,,0,0

Having rowhouses can't automatically make a city northeastern. DC and Baltimore have had rowhouses since the late 19th Century (if not earlier for Baltimore) and they were southern cities at least up until the 1960s (documentation already provided upthread). So the only thing that could have changed them from southern to northeastern is a huge migration of transplants from the Northeast bringing northeastern culture with them.

The problem with the "northern by migration" theory is that there are more migrants from the South than the Northeast and Midwest combined. The question, then, is whether a combination of transplants from Tennessee, Arizona, Texas, Ohio, and California can make a place culturally "northeastern"?
Richmond is more of an anomaly, as no major city in the South has a large row-house stock like that. It really shows that the city's infrastructure is heavily influenced from the North. Typically row-houses are a common trait for cities in the Northeast and some parts of the Mid-West. San Francisco is also an anomaly as well because it is built a lot different than other cities in its region. That city stocks out like a sore thumb on the West Coast.
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Richmond is more of an anomaly, as no major city in the South has a large row-house stock like that. It really shows that the city's infrastructure is heavily influenced from the North. Typically row-houses are a common trait for cities in the Northeast and some parts of the Mid-West. San Francisco is also an anomaly as well because it is built a lot different than other cities in its region. That city stocks out like a sore thumb on the West Coast.
That still doesn't answer my question.

If rowhouses made cities northeastern, then how could DC and Baltimore, which have had rowhouses for more than 100 years, could have ever been southern (and they were unquestionably southern as the Baltimore Sun article I posted indicates)?
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:51 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,147 posts, read 9,932,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Richmond is more of an anomaly, as no major city in the South has a large row-house stock like that. It really shows that the city's infrastructure is heavily influenced from the North. Typically row-houses are a common trait for cities in the Northeast and some parts of the Mid-West. San Francisco is also an anomaly as well because it is built a lot different than other cities in its region. That city stocks out like a sore thumb on the West Coast.
Perhaps rowhouses are not really a sign of the Northeast after all. Maybe it is more of a sign of when a city came of age. In other words, older cities that began to be built up rapidly before the age of the automobile are more likely to have rowhouses regardless of their location. If that is true, then we find more rowhouses in the Northeast simply because it is the first part of the country to become heavily populated, not because rowhouses are unique to the Northeast.
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,307 posts, read 26,314,799 times
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Here's an interview with John Waters, a native Baltimorean made famous for the movie Hairspray (set in Baltimore).

Quote:
Aside from the novelty of having a pudgy heroine who gets the good-looking guy and whom everyone loves, Hairspray also tackles an issue you won’t find in Where the Boys Are, Beach Blanket Bingo or even American Graffiti—segregation. As Waters tells it, the downfall of “The Buddy Dean Show” was its inability to deal gracefully with the different racial elements in Baltimore: Integrated dance floors were taboo, and every so often the show broadcast a token “Negro Day."

But there’s a double-edged quality to Hairspray’s integration theme. “How serious is it to come out for integration in ’62? It’s a joke on message movies. That’s what happened, I lived through it—Baltimore was the South, and there was a lot of segregation there."
From the archives: John Waters' 'Hairspray' gets a 'shocking' PG rating
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:52 AM
 
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I think once you cross the Appalachians you're no longer in the Northeast, apologies to Buffalo or Pittsburgh
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Not to mention Charleston, Savannah, and even New Orleans. And in the Midwest, Cincinnati and Saint Louis.
Many people consider the Midwest to be Northern states, just not Northeastern. As for those Southern cities, row-houses make up an extremely small percentage of the housing stock to where it is miniscule. It's funny when people try to act like those small amount of row-houses in those cities are even close to the norm of what type of houses people actually live in those cities.

Quote:
Plus a lot of northeastern cities don't have rowhouses. They're all-but absent in new England except in Boston (there are a few blocks here and there, but no rowhouse neighborhoods). Upstate NY lacks them except in the Albany area. As does most of Pennsylvania west of SEPA/the Lehigh Valley (with Pittsburgh the main exception)
That statement is definitely not true. All major cities in the the Northeast do have row-houses. Of course not every single little town will have them but many of the sizable cities do. It's also not uncommon for suburban towns to have row-houses as well in the Northeast.
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Interesting history.

I was only commenting on the "northern transplants have taken over" claim that's often made on this Board. I fail to see how migrants from Alabama, Texas, SW Virginia, and North Carolina contribute to the "northeastern" feel of the state.
I agree I don't see how anyone could make that claim or why they would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Not to mention Charleston, Savannah, and even New Orleans. And in the Midwest, Cincinnati and Saint Louis.

Plus a lot of northeastern cities don't have rowhouses. They're all-but absent in new England except in Boston (there are a few blocks here and there, but no rowhouse neighborhoods). Upstate NY lacks them except in the Albany area. As does most of Pennsylvania west of SEPA/the Lehigh Valley (with Pittsburgh the main exception)
Rowhouses were common in Philly and NY and they were some of the originals. That's one reason they were always associated with the NE. I have personally walked through Harlem and seen the rowhouses there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Perhaps rowhouses are not really a sign of the Northeast after all. Maybe it is more of a sign of when a city came of age. In other words, older cities that began to be built up rapidly before the age of the automobile are more likely to have rowhouses regardless of their location. If that is true, then we find more rowhouses in the Northeast simply because it is the first part of the country to become heavily populated, not because rowhouses are unique to the Northeast.
I think people take into account when they were built. Some now are officially registered as historical including some in my city.
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