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Old 08-07-2014, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Here's an interview from the University of Maryland-Baltimore archives.

Quote:
Baltimore is a southern city. When I came here Baltimore was as southerm if not more so, as my hometown of Chattanooga, Tennessee. Let me give you an example...This is probably 1959, I'm working in a unit--an integrated unit--at Baltimore City DSS, and a white worker was leaving to work at Social Security. So, the unit wanted to take her out for lunch, not dinner. The only place we could go at that time that would take an integrated group was the dining room in Pennsylvania Station.
Nathaniel Branson - Social Work - UMBC
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
That still doesn't answer my question.

If rowhouses made cities northeastern, then how could DC and Baltimore, which have had rowhouses for more than 100 years, could have ever been southern (and they were unquestionably southern as the Baltimore Sun article I posted indicates)?
I told you, those cities were never truly Southern to begin with. Historically they were border cities. Similar to cities like St. Louis and Cincinnati. Traditionally those cities were located in that grey area, as cultural areas don't not always fit nice and neat within stereotypical boundaries. Do you think it was a coincidence that those places didn't join the Confederacy? The Civil War was a perfect opportunity for those cities to assert their Southerness and end all confusion about which side of the war they stood on since you claim those cities are so Southern in culture. Please don't bring out that "martial law" crap because if Maryland was so Southern as you claimed, they would have rallied and overpowered the Union in Washington DC and that city would've been under Confederate control. The fact that Washington DC stayed under Union control proved that Maryland wasn't all that Southern to begin with. Keep in mind that this was a time period when Southern pride and power was at an all-time high. Now those cities today are solidly Mid-Western while Baltimore and Washington DC are solidly Northeastern.

Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 08-07-2014 at 10:46 AM..
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_General View Post
I think once you cross the Appalachians you're no longer in the Northeast, apologies to Buffalo or Pittsburgh
Before I moved out to Pittsburgh I would have said this was true, but there's really very little similarity between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, although they are only a two-hour drive apart. Housing looks different, people have totally different accents, etc. Plus Pittsburgh "looks east" - most transplants come from East Coast cities, and people who leave for bigger cities tend to go to Philly or DC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
As for those Southern cities, row-houses make up an extremely small percentage of the housing stock to where it is miniscule. It's funny when people try to act like those small amount of row-houses in those cities are even close to the norm of what type of houses people actually live in those cities.
While this is true, part of it is because southern cities tend to have broader city limits. Hence a lot of areas which would be in suburban towns in the Northeast are within the city proper in the Southeast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
That statement is definitely not true. All major cities in the the Northeast do have row-houses. Of course not every single little town will have them but many of the sizable cities do. It's also not uncommon for suburban towns to have row-houses as well in the Northeast.
That depends upon what you call a major city. I grew up in Connecticut, for example, and there are no rowhouse neighborhoods in the state. There's a stand of a half-dozen I know in Bridgeport, and a block in New Haven and Hartford respectively. But that's about it. There are some rowhouses in Holyoke, Massachusetts, but it's not a whole neighborhood. I don't think Providence has a significant number either. I know in some of these cities there were more before urban renewal took them out, since the rowhouses tended to be very close in to downtown. But the fact remains that outside of the core of Boston, there's nowhere that attached housing survived in large numbers.

In the mid-Atlantic, rowhouses seem to be largely to entirely absent from most of the major upstate NY cities (Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse, etc). In Pennsylvania, I don't think there are really any in the Wyoming Valley cities (Scranton and Wilkes-Barre) or Erie.
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:16 AM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Except for New Orleans, which is far from the east coast, Baltimore and Washington were much larger any other southern city in the mid and late 19th century. The core of Baltimore, both in housing stock and in built form, appears to be rather similar to Philadelphia, just smaller. Washington DC rowhomes look somewhat different, more in common with Virginia ones. Baltimore doesn't seem historically since it looks much more like Philadelphia than any other southern city at the time. Boston is larger than Baltimore but doesn't have as many row houses; rowhomes are common New York City southward (New York City probably would have been a largely row house city if it hadn't become so dense) along the east coast until the cities are too small. Though, a number of very small cities in Maryland and Pennyslvania have rowhomes that would be rarer further south.

Historical Metropolitan Populations of the United States - Peakbagger.com

Largest cities in the United States by population by decade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Perhaps rowhouses are not really a sign of the Northeast after all. Maybe it is more of a sign of when a city came of age. In other words, older cities that began to be built up rapidly before the age of the automobile are more likely to have rowhouses regardless of their location. If that is true, then we find more rowhouses in the Northeast simply because it is the first part of the country to become heavily populated, not because row-houses are unique to the Northeast.
It's largely a Northern trait. There are plenty of cities in the South built up before the automobile and they look nothing like Northern cities. Even those cities like Charleston and Savannah don't have a lot of row-houses like you see in Northern cities despite being some of the oldest cities in the US. The only major city in the South that does is Richmond but I have already stated that Richmond is an anomaly and is not the norm.
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
I told you, those cities were never truly Southern to begin with. Historically they were border cities. Similar to cities like St. Louis and Cincinnati. Traditionally those cities were located in that grey area, as cultural areas don't not always fit nice and neat within stereotypical boundaries. Now those cities today are solidly Mid-Western while Baltimore and Washington DC are solidly Northeastern.
I couldn't agree more that's why when people use the federal census bureau map to discuss this subject it's folly, albeit the easy way out. The fed map or fed guidelines are just there to simplify it for administrative purposes. They're not trying to tell the whole world who is northeastern or southern in America.
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
While this is true, part of it is because southern cities tend to have broader city limits. Hence a lot of areas which would be in suburban towns in the Northeast are within the city proper in the Southeast.
Which is a important trait that separates Northern cities from Southern cities.

Quote:
That depends upon what you call a major city. I grew up in Connecticut, for example, and there are no rowhouse neighborhoods in the state. There's a stand of a half-dozen I know in Bridgeport, and a block in New Haven and Hartford respectively. But that's about it. There are some rowhouses in Holyoke, Massachusetts, but it's not a whole neighborhood. I don't think Providence has a significant number either. I know in some of these cities there were more before urban renewal took them out, since the rowhouses tended to be very close in to downtown. But the fact remains that outside of the core of Boston, there's nowhere that attached housing survived in large numbers.

In the mid-Atlantic, rowhouses seem to be largely to entirely absent from most of the major upstate NY cities (Rochester, Buffalo, Syracuse, etc). In Pennsylvania, I don't think there are really any in the Wyoming Valley cities (Scranton and Wilkes-Barre) or Erie.
Like I said already, you will always find them in major cities and many smaller ones as well. I said it could vary greatly when it comes to the smaller towns but all in all, you will find more row-houses in the Northeast than any other region in the country. You have to look at the big picture.
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
I told you, those cities were never truly Southern to begin with. Historically they were border cities. Similar to cities like St. Louis and Cincinnati. Traditionally those cities were located in that grey area, as cultural areas don't not always fit nice and neat within stereotypical boundaries. Do you think it was a coincidence that those places didn't join the Confederacy? The Civil War was a perfect opportunity for those cities to assert their Southerness and end all confusion about which side of the war they stood on since you claim those cities are so Southern in culture. Please don't bring out that "martial law" crap because if Maryland was so Southern as you claimed, they would have rallied and overpowered the Union in Washington DC and that city would've been under Confederate control. The fact that Washington DC stayed under Union control proved that Maryland wasn't all that Southern to begin with. Keep in mind that this was a time period when Southern pride and power was at an all-time high. Now those cities today are solidly Mid-Western while Baltimore and Washington DC are solidly Northeastern.
That's what you're telling me, but the Baltimore Sun and the state legislature were saying completely different things.

Quote:
Baltimore once was clearly a Southern city - with all of the pride of the South and all its prejudices.
Is Baltimore A Southern City | Are we Northern? Southern? Yes. - Baltimore Sun

That's a very clear statement. And it makes sense considering that Maryland was a founding member of the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association. If the state did not consider itself southern, then why would it join those organizations?

And the Confederacy argument is a cop out. Kentucky didn't secede; it's southern. Maryland likely would have seceded if left to its own devices. After the Civil War, Baltimore elected George Proctor Kane as mayor, a widely-known Confederate sympathizer who was imprisoned by Lincoln during the war for fear that he would drive the city into a secessionist frenzy. I mean, Lincoln was so concerned about Maryland leaving the union that he relocated the U.S. Naval Academy from Annapolis to Newport, Rhode Island.

You can argue the present status of Maryland is this or that until you're blue in the face. But you can't just go back and revise history. There is no question that Baltimore was a southern city.
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Which is a important trait that separates Northern cities from Southern cities.
I agree, but as noted upthread, Maryland (and Delaware, for that matter) follow the southern tradition of strong counties, few incorporated municipalities, and tons of unincorporated county land. There is not a single incorporated city or town in Baltimore County, for example. And in Maryland the school districts are all county based.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Like I said already, you will always find them in major cities and many smaller ones as well. I said it could vary greatly when it comes to the smaller towns but all in all, you will find more row-houses in the Northeast than any other region in the country. You have to look at the big picture.
I think rowhouses are mainly a Mid-Atlantic thing. They are present, but basically equally rare, in New England and some portions of the coastal South, and extended a bit through the lower Midwest as well.
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:35 AM
 
Location: BMORE!
7,754 posts, read 6,172,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Except for New Orleans, which is far from the east coast, Baltimore and Washington were much larger any other southern city in the mid and late 19th century. The core of Baltimore, both in housing stock and in built form, appears to be rather similar to Philadelphia, just smaller. Washington DC rowhomes look somewhat different, more in common with Virginia ones. Baltimore doesn't seem historically since it looks much more like Philadelphia than any other southern city at the time. Boston is larger than Baltimore but doesn't have as many row houses; rowhomes are common New York City southward (New York City probably would have been a largely row house city if it hadn't become so dense) along the east coast until the cities are too small. Though, a number of very small cities in Maryland and Pennyslvania have rowhomes that would be rarer further south.

Historical Metropolitan Populations of the United States - Peakbagger.com

Largest cities in the United States by population by decade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Boston must've surpassed Baltimore in population pretty recent. Baltimore was always larger than Boston and DC for that matter.
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