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Old 08-18-2014, 12:13 PM
Status: "Retired" (set 29 days ago)
 
620 posts, read 687,397 times
Reputation: 243

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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Just the fact people identify by county proved MD is not really Norheastern.
In most NErn states counties are largely court districts.
There are still county governments in NY, NJ, PA and DE and the people in those 4 states still sometimes identify by counties.
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:16 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 2,751,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
It is a typical characteristic of American cities that the racial demographics change dramatically from one area to another and also over time. People tend to self-segregate by race and ethnicity, especially when their populations become larger. New York City today is majority non-white. New Jersey has also become much more non-white than it used to be. Do these changes mean that they are a different region now than they used to be?
Exactly. So why do demographic changes in Maryland now make it "Northeastern"?

Quote:
Also, Prince George's County was considered to have more culturally southern characteristics (like accents and pace of life) when it was majority white, as recently as 1970. It has more northeastern characteristics now that it has become majority black.
What "northeastern characteristics"?
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,237,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
Exactly. So why do demographic changes in Maryland now make it "Northeastern"?
I still don't get why people fight so hard to be included in the Northeast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
What "northeastern characteristics"?
Maybe it's become richer?
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:20 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 2,751,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
There are still county governments in NY, NJ, PA and DE and the people in those 4 states still sometimes identify by counties.
Silver Spring, Bethesda, etc. are unincorporated areas directly governed by the county - very much not a "northeastern" characteristic.
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:40 PM
Status: "Retired" (set 29 days ago)
 
620 posts, read 687,397 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
Silver Spring, Bethesda, etc. are unincorporated areas directly governed by the county - very much not a "northeastern" characteristic.
Why couldn't at least one northeastern state have strong county governments?
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Old 08-18-2014, 12:56 PM
 
Location: BMORE!
7,742 posts, read 6,141,582 times
Reputation: 3590
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I still don't get why people fight so hard to be included in the Northeast.



Maybe it's become richer?
Exactly! Especially when there are people from the northeast fighting equally as hard to tell them that they're not. It's almost sad. Maryland being southern is a great thing since it's a diverse state adding to an already diverse region.
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:51 PM
 
9,382 posts, read 9,539,690 times
Reputation: 5786
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
Why couldn't at least one northeastern state have strong county governments?
Because it is a utterly different style of government one (Towns) has each community dealing independently with its problems (there are 352 town in Massachsetts)
Vs a distinctly regional approach (about 15:1 ratio between MA towns to MD Counties)
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,276,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
But writers and scholars of the day considered it a southern city. Two of Baltimore's most famous native sons--Reginald Lewis (the first African American billionaire) and John Waters (known for the movie "Hairspray," which is set in Baltimore)--even consider their hometown a southern city.

From Lewis' autobiography.



And from a John Waters interview.



From the archives: John Waters' 'Hairspray' gets a 'shocking' PG rating

Do you think Bill Cosby or Chris Matthews--who grew up in 1940s and 50s Philadelphia--would call their hometown "southern?"
As I said in my first post, individual anecdotal experiences and personal opinions (even from respected and famous individuals) have little weight in determining culture, but are only very small pieces in a larger puzzle. Honestly, they have little more meaning than if someone were to say "my Aunt Jane in Maryland drinks sweet tea every morning and flies a rebel flag off of her porch."

It just so happens that this past weekend I visited Harrisburg, PA and I saw a Confederate flag on the front plate of a Jeep Cherokee (PA doesn't have require front license plates). That experience didn't make me think PA as a whole was Southern though.

Edgar Allen Poe and Francis Scott Key may have viewed MD differently (or the same). Collective experiences/cultures and measurable data are more relevant imho. In fact, according to a reputable UNC poll, most Marylanders, Washingtonians, and Delawareans don't believe that they live in the South.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
New Orleans grew so large because it was at the mouth of the Mighty Mississippi. And Baltimore was very much tied into the slave trade.


I mean, have you ever heard of a book called "Roots?" Kunta Kinte didn't arrive in Louisiana or South Carolina. He arrived in Maryland. That's how Maryland wound up with such a large African American population: slavery.
I am very aware of the slave trade in Baltimore and Maryland, and have stated as much. Slavery alone though doesn't make the city (or state) Southern. Newport, RI was once the busiest slave trading port in the United States, but that hardly makes it Southern.

"That's how Maryland wound up with such a large African American population: slavery."

Really? In 1900, decades after slavery ended, only ~15% of Baltimore residents were black--more than most Northern cities, but much smaller than pretty much any major Southern city (outside of maybe TX or FL).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Philadelphia, Boston and New York industrialized on a much larger scale and much faster than Baltimore did. That's why the demographics of these cities are so different. Baltimore doesn't really fit the demographic profile of a northeastern city. Cities like Pittsburgh, Providence, Buffalo, Rochester, New Haven and Scranton have much more substantial Irish and Italian populations.
I'll have to disagree with you strongly on that point (with the exception of New York). Baltimore became very heavily industrialized during the late 19th and early 20th centuries at a rate not seen anywhere in the South. The B&O Railroad, which was a key facilitator of Northern industrialization, played a large role in Baltimore as well. Even today the heavily industrial cityscape (not seen in any major Southern city with the exception of maybe Birmingham) is still evident even after most of the steel mills and manufacturing plants have closed. Similarly the city has also had to deal with the same issues of white flight and urban decay in the late 90's as most other Northern industrialized cities, especially those in the Rust Belt.

The proportions of European migrant descendents varies considerably in the North, and while Baltimore may be at the lower end of that scale (which makes perfect sense) it definitely separates it from any city in the South.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
They're not meaningless. We've skinned this cat up, down and sideways long before your entry into this thread. The fact is that Baltimore (and Washington) don't have the same percentages and numbers of these groups as northeastern cities. I mean, are you really going to argue with the numbers I laid out in plain sight for you?
When I said 'meaningless,' I was referring to the comparisons of gross population figures (not the percentages). Stating that there are "more Italians in the Philadelphia MSA than there are Black people in the Baltimore MSA" doesn't mean anything to me. Stating that there are a higher percentage of Italians in Philadelphia than there are in Baltimore is totally different, and has far more meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I'm sure that's true for Baltimore and the DC area too.
DC yes, Baltimore no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
New Orleans (Irish/Italian), Savannah (Irish), Memphis (Irish) and Atlanta (Jewish) have also had European immigrant communities.

The difference between Philadelphia (a true northeastern city) and Baltimore or St. Louis is that the former received such overwhelming numbers of White Catholics and Jews that ethnic identity endured much, much longer. Not only is this population several times bigger in Philly than it is in Baltimore, but Catholics and Jews actually came to overtake the White Protestant population. That's not the case in Baltimore where White Protestants outnumber Catholics and Jews.
I find this interesting.

Maryland has the 5th highest concentration of Jews among the 50 states behind NY, NJ, FL (obviously NE retirees), and MA according to Adherents.com: Judaism. As for Christianity (data from the 2008 American Religious Identification Survey) here's how Maryland and Delaware compares with their neighbors to the immediate North and South:

Catholics (percentage of total residents)
Pennsylvania - 31%
Delaware - 26%
Maryland - 27%
Virginia - 11%

Baptists (percentage of total residents)
Pennsylvania - 7%
Delaware - 17%
Maryland - 17%
Virginia - 27%

Granted the above data is for Maryland as a whole, not just Baltimore, since it's difficult to track down reliable data on religion on the city level. However, the Baltimore MSA is definitely heavily Catholic and Jewish and has an especially long Catholic history, even for a Northern city. For instance, the city is home to the nation's very first Roman Catholic cathedral.
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:57 PM
 
781 posts, read 1,094,509 times
Reputation: 609
King of Kensington you think MoCo is "so-called" more northern than Alexandria?
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Old 08-18-2014, 08:17 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 2,751,646 times
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Border states as well as other pockets (New Orleans) are more diverse parts of the South. I mean Louisville received a lot of German immigrants in the 1800s and demographically it looked a bit like a "mini-Cincinnati." 19th century German immigrants is more of a characteristic of Midwestern cities than Southern ones. But I don't see anybody pushing here to get Kentucky removed from the South!

I also don't think New Orleans is any less "white ethnic" than Baltimore.

Both the Northeast and South had industrial cities and received immigrants. It's just that the South received far less proportionately and was much less of an industrial powerhouse, and was (and is) a lot more rural overall. There are always some exceptions, it doesn't make Kentucky or Maryland not Southern.
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