U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 08-19-2014, 12:44 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,138 posts, read 9,915,669 times
Reputation: 6424

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Technically speaking townships in New Jersey and Pennsylvania are unincorporated, while towns in New England and New York are incorporated. That said, NJ/PA townships have extensive self-governance (much moreso than the "survey" townships in much of the Midwest) and are treated by the state in most aspects as being equal to cities and boroughs (e.g., a city can't annex land without a popular vote, although it can only annex part of a township, where it would have to swallow an entire city or borough).

Regardless, there is no doubt that in terms of local governance, Maryland and Delaware follow the southern norm. Maryland has only incorporated cities - no towns. Delaware has both, but the incorporated towns are more similar to PA/NJ boroughs - small areas geographically with well over half having less than 2,000 people. Both states have tons of unincorporated county land.

Of course, these are not just the norms in the south, but in the entire west as well. Thus you could argue that "strong county/unincorporated county land" is more of a Sun Belt phenomena than anything. Indeed, it's probably no coincidence that states with this form of government (including MD/DE) continue to have strong local development, as having less local governments does seem to cut down on the ability of NIMBYs to block new construction nearby.
Maryland I get. She has Southern roots and was considered Southern for much of her history.

Delaware seems more complicated though. She was basically run by Pennsylvania for a long time so you would expect a more Northern system of local government. However she seems to have adopted a more Southern style system over the years such as having the counties control the zoning.

However there is this that makes Delaware somewhat unique:

Most functions which are handled on a county-by-county basis in other states—such as court and law enforcement—have been centralized in Delaware, leading to a significant concentration of power in the Delaware state government. .

I get the impression that the Delaware State government bypasses both the counties and the local governments to run the local affairs directly, at least in some matters. Because of the State's small size this actually makes a lot of sense and probably helps save on taxes.


List of counties in Delaware - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:03 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,138 posts, read 9,915,669 times
Reputation: 6424
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
For the same reason we don't put Florida in the north. Cultural and regional similarities do not move regional lines.
However regional lines do move from time to time. There was a time when Florida was not considered the South because she belonged to another country (Spain). And the Great Lakes States were not considered to be the Midwest, they were considered to be the Northwest.

I understand the history of Maryland but times change and I personally feel that Maryland fits in better with the Northeast now. She has connections to both the North and the South. But I think she has more in common today with Pennsylvania or Connecticut then she does with Alabama or Georgia.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
3,584 posts, read 2,505,374 times
Reputation: 2927
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
However regional lines do move from time to time. There was a time when Florida was not considered the South because she belonged to another country (Spain). And the Great Lakes States were not considered to be the Midwest, they were considered to be the Northwest.

I understand the history of Maryland but times change and I personally feel that Maryland fits in better with the Northeast now. She has connections to both the North and the South. But I think she has more in common today with Pennsylvania or Connecticut then she does with Alabama or Georgia.
The same could be said about Florida... do we take Florida out of the South because of that?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2014, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,263,727 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Unfortunately you haven't blown any arguments to 'smithereens'.
Yes, we have blown it to smithereens. The argument that "Well, all of the original colonies were slave states, so that's not really a southern characterstic" is an incredibly stupid one. It's like you guys can understand scale in certain contexts (say, for example, the number of white people with college degrees) but somehow can't comprehend it in others (435 slaves vs 118,000). That argument needs to die because it's dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Your arguments are weak and cherry picked, for example constantly focusing on black/Irish/Latino populations when concerning demographics while ignoring the more numerous and striking similarities ( Germans, Catholics and Jews?).
I guess you missed that detailed breakdown of Italian, Irish, Jewish, and Polish population by metro area...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,265,062 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
The same could be said about Florida... do we take Florida out of the South because of that?
Wolf39us, if you believe that regional lines don't move then you can't put Pennsylvania and New Jersey in the northeast.

That's right, Pennsylvania was once considered not northern, but a border area between north and south. I suggest you take a look at William Randall and Philipp Klein's histories of Pennsylvania. Their books are the standard for undegraduate and graduate students studying the subject. For less cost you can view on Youtube Yale university's Professor Joanne Freeman touch upon the subject during one of her lectures. New Jersey held onto this reputation for an even longer time, but I digress. In my opinion it would be absurd to argue that these places are still grey areas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Center City
6,865 posts, read 7,811,377 times
Reputation: 9492
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Unfortunately you haven't blown any arguments to 'smithereens'. You have yelled the loudest for the longest.
LOL - an astute observation. I can't believe this thread is still alive, but it's easy to see why. I suspect that unless and until everyone agrees with a certain poster's views on this matter of subjectivity, disharmony will reign over the northeast. We better settle in for a long siege.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2014, 02:35 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,138 posts, read 9,915,669 times
Reputation: 6424
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
The same could be said about Florida... do we take Florida out of the South because of that?
Do you mean take Florida out of the South because of Florida's population? Frankly I do not care what Florida's population is like - it is still a Southern state. There has already been far too much emphasis on this thread about populations of % Black. % Jewish, % Italian, % Irish etc.

Also there is something called geography.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2014, 02:38 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,138 posts, read 9,915,669 times
Reputation: 6424
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Wolf39us, if you believe that regional lines don't move then you can't put Pennsylvania and New Jersey in the northeast.

That's right, Pennsylvania was once considered not northern, but a border area between north and south. I suggest you take a look at William Randall and Philipp Klein's histories of Pennsylvania. Their books are the standard for undegraduate and graduate students studying the subject. For less cost you can view on Youtube Yale university's Professor Joanne Freeman touch upon the subject during one of her lectures. New Jersey held onto this reputation for an even longer time, but I digress. In my opinion it would be absurd to argue that these places are still grey areas.
Do you have links please?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2014, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
3,584 posts, read 2,505,374 times
Reputation: 2927
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Wolf39us, if you believe that regional lines don't move then you can't put Pennsylvania and New Jersey in the northeast.

That's right, Pennsylvania was once considered not northern, but a border area between north and south. I suggest you take a look at William Randall and Philipp Klein's histories of Pennsylvania. Their books are the standard for undegraduate and graduate students studying the subject. For less cost you can view on Youtube Yale university's Professor Joanne Freeman touch upon the subject during one of her lectures. New Jersey held onto this reputation for an even longer time, but I digress. In my opinion it would be absurd to argue that these places are still grey areas.
It sure would be absurd, given that they are officially part of the Northeast region. State lines also moved several times after moving further south and further west. Some states lost lines, some states gained.

What is not disputable though is that PA has been a part of the northeast for a very long time (I don't know for sure if it has been since statehood). But you are moving to waaay before statehood in that book. I mean, the northern half of PA was claimed by Connecticut, southern by Maryland, and Western was part of Virginia. NJ was also in that whole mix.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-19-2014, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
3,584 posts, read 2,505,374 times
Reputation: 2927
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Do you mean take Florida out of the South because of Florida's population? Frankly I do not care what Florida's population is like - it is still a Southern state. There has already been far too much emphasis on this thread about populations of % Black. % Jewish, % Italian, % Irish etc.

Also there is something called geography.
Precisely, Geography! And in the case of the northeast the line has been drawn. You can make Florida the new "New York" and it will still be the south.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top