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Old 08-20-2014, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
What I am saying is, even during this period prior to the Civil War, this did not denote a modern-day understanding of North v. South. In this context, as your quote demonstrates, there was a recognition of a region in between New England and the South -- which is clearly where the notion of the mid-Atlantic came from. However, as you know, this region was eventually recognized as a subset of the Northeast.
Yes, and this is exactly why solidly mid-atlantic states like MD and DE are northeastern today, regardless of how they were considered in 1838.
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:20 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,989 posts, read 42,008,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Yes, and this is exactly why solidly mid-atlantic states like MD and DE are northeastern today.
No, that's not the same thing. Maryland was considered wholly southern then. Pennysvlania and New Jersey never were.
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:22 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KodeBlue View Post
What are the benefits of being from the northeast as opposed to other parts of the country? What are the advantages that they have over everyone else?
The northeastern United States is where probably the majority of the high-paying careers for college-educated people are located in this country. And if it isn't the majority, then it certainly is the highest concentration. This is what actually matters to most people anyway.

Naturally, I'm including the Washington DC and Baltimore metro areas in this.
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
The northeastern United States is where probably the majority of the high-paying careers for college-educated people are located in this country. And if it isn't the majority, then it certainly is the highest concentration. This is what actually matters to most people anyway.

Naturally, I'm including the Washington DC and Baltimore metro areas in this.
So Scranton and Syracuse aren't Northeastern I suppose.
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Yes, and this is exactly why solidly mid-atlantic states like MD and DE are northeastern today, regardless of how they were considered in 1838.
Huh?

A problem always arises when people conflate the historical/academic use of the term "Middle Atlantic" with its colloquial use.

The U.S. Census Bureau defines the "Northeast" as nine states in both New England (ME, NH, VT, MA, CT, RI) and the Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA). This definition, I presume, was based largely on the colonial categorization of these states.

Then you have the colloquial use of the term, which really centers more around the DC area (stretching all the way down to Richmond and Norfolk, which is why "Mid Atlantic" appears in many of the business names there). For the most part, there is no widely-accepted agreement on the boundaries of this subregion.

What you're doing is using the colloquial definition and grafting it onto the official Census definition (all the while arguing that the Census is no type of authority on the matter).
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
So Scranton and Syracuse aren't Northeastern I suppose.
I mean, I guess we could just say that Maryland is "northeastern" but lacks many of the characteristics that most of the northeastern states have in common.

But I guess we could just as easily say that Maryland is "southern" but lacks many of the characteristics that most of the southern states have in common.

Either way, it comes off as a bit of an interloper.
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
No, that's not the same thing. Maryland was considered wholly southern then. Pennysvlania and New Jersey never were.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. Earlier you stated that MD/DE were border areas, but now you are arguing that they can't shift. Well which is it? Can regional boundaries and identities change, or are they rigid and unmoving constructs?

I would say that they can shift, just like they did when political and cultural realities shifted durung the early years of our country. Slavery has been a non issue since the 19th century, and places like MD and DE have become part and parcel of the 'new' northeast rathe than the 'new' south. The reality is that in 2014 John Williams from Sykesville has more in common culturally, politically, and linguistically, with the guy from York than the guy from Charlottesville.
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
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To summarize my two cents...

Delaware just barely falls on the northeastern side of the equation. The two main aspects of its identity which lean southern are the "strong county" model of government and being a slave state at the time of the Civil War. But slavery was on the decline by that time, with slaves making up only a small percentage of the population. New Castle County has a pretty unquestionable northeastern identity, and while "slower lower" is southern-light outside of Dover and the beach towns, not too many people live there. I don't think of it as fully Northeastern by any means, but it has a stronger claim than its non-Pennsylvania neighbor.

Maryland is a different story. Plantation slavery was still going strong in 1860. It was not identified as a "middle colony/state" ever, but as southern. It was a Jim Crow state, albeit one where the Dixiecrats were never strong enough to actually stop black people from voting entirely. The only part of the state which is transitional between the Northeast and the Southeast is Baltimore and its immediate environs. The portions of Maryland near DC were historically very southern/rural. In the present they haven't so much become northeastern as they have become homogenized General American (at least in the non-black neighborhoods). You could stick any suburb in Montgomery County outside of Seattle and (topography and minor housing differences aside) it wouldn't look very out of place.
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Old 08-20-2014, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,263,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
I'm not sure I follow your logic. Earlier you stated that MD/DE were border areas, but now you are arguing that they can't shift. Well which is it? Can regional boundaries and identities change, or are they rigid and unmoving constructs?
I'm actually all for that so long as we don't arbitrarily change the rules of the game to shut the door on other states after DC, WV, MD and VA walk through it. For example, some say that any territory that rebelled against the Union can never be part of the Northeast, which would theoretically exclude all of NOVA. Yet many people argue that the Northeast and "Northeastern culture" stretches into NOVA because what happened 150 years ago doesn't matter. If that's the case, then I don't see why any former confederate state can't become "northeastern." That is, if it's really all just a matter of "lifestyle" and culture anyway.
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Old 08-20-2014, 09:07 AM
 
2,253 posts, read 2,754,501 times
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Why isn't it the "New South"?
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