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Old 08-21-2014, 08:00 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,272 posts, read 19,566,600 times
Reputation: 13048

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Go ahead, make a poll in the General US forum asking if Maryland is northern or southern - we both know it will be northern. Most people in the US consider it to be that, and while there are arguments that can be made, it just doesn't stack up.
This was already done with Washington DC years ago:

Is DC a Northeast City
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
3,584 posts, read 2,505,374 times
Reputation: 2927
The poll is irrelevant and that's the whole point.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Jersey City
6,489 posts, read 16,166,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
Mid-Atlantic states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You must get tired of being wrong.

Aww take it easy on ol' mupps. He's making progress. Remember, just a couple of months ago he was arguing that Wisconsin and Illinois are northeastern states! The fact that we're now down to Maryland and Delaware is progress!
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
3,584 posts, read 2,505,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lammius View Post
Aww take it easy on ol' mupps. He's making progress. Remember, just a couple of months ago he was arguing that Wisconsin and Illinois are northeastern states! The fact that we're now down to Maryland and Delaware is progress!
Actually we are down to just Delaware LOL

It's a few pages back, but you can find it :-)
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,524 posts, read 2,265,062 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
The poll is irrelevant and that's the whole point.
Yes, according to your individual argument. But everyone has different arguments with yours being an outlier. I don't think anyone else is arguing that a region is set in stone cannot ever change (correct me if I'm wrong). Others are looking at cultural,economic, political data while you might feel it is all irrelevant because a region cannot ever change. That is fine, but your argument is different from Nei or BajanYankee who are primary defenders of what we can call the "Small Northeast" idea. If you consider the census bureau to be final authority then that is fine, but I am rather enjoying looking at cultural/economic/political aspects for defining regions, consider them far more important.

When I lived in Canada for example, there were English Canadian communities in Quebec that did not speak French but English, and were in every way more like Ontarians - but according to official definitions they were Québecois. But they wouldn't call themselves that because in common speech the term Québecois carries cultural undertones. Only French speakers identify with the term, despite the fact that "officially" everyone inside the province is. It is an example of people who are officially considered one thing by certain government bodies, but as something else when it comes to cultural realities.

As such I cannot debate with you, and according to the rules you are setting, you are correct. According to the Census Bureau MD and DE are in the south. There is no evidence I can offer to counter that unless the Census Bureau places these states in the Northeast. Similarly, there is nothing I can do to convince someone who only looks at geographic location that Virginia is southern. After all, the geographic north/south border is somewhere between Virginia and North Carolina. But of course when most people say Virginia and Kentucky are southern, they are speaking of culture which is far more important and usually implied. If someone only looks at geography and discounts, culture, politics, economics, etc, then Los Angeles is the deep south.

But if we are talking about the cultural, political, or economic terms, the picture begins to look very different. And I don't mean any disrespect, but for me and many others, cultural/economic/political realities are more important when defining regions than what particular government bodies define. This is why people often speak of "northern Europe" and include Germanic countries but not Belarus, or why when people speak of western Europe they usually include Austria and Sweden while leaving out countries like the Czech Republic, Solvenia, and Croatia. In terms of culture I am quite positive that the consensus among Americans north, south, east, and west, would be that MD is a northeastern state, just like Austria and Sweden are usually considered to be "western" while Slovenia usually is not. When you ask if MD is part of the southeast or northeast it carries cultural undertones for many, while for others (like you) the answer may be as simple as what the census bureau says or where an 18th century boundary settling disputes between MD and PA was drawn.

Anyways, BajanYankee has pointed to opinions and polls on City Data as proof of a place being northeastern/southeastern. The post BigCityDreamer has provided the poll for was a response to BajanYankee's use of City Data opinions as evidence. But of course according to the convictions you have repeatedly made known, you must consider BajanYankee's poll to be equally irrelevant. Why didn't you tell BajanYankee his poll was irrelevant? Why is it that you haven't pointed out that any of his evidence (such as ancestry statistics) is irrelevant? If your belief is that polls, opinions, culture, economics, politics, religion, and linguistics are irrelevant, then please be consistent and call out BajanYankee and Nei for also posting pages of "irrelevant" information!
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:34 PM
 
620 posts, read 688,068 times
Reputation: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Yes, according to your individual argument. But everyone has different arguments with yours being an outlier. I don't think anyone else is arguing that a region is set in stone cannot ever change (correct me if I'm wrong). Others are looking at cultural,economic, political data while you might feel it is all irrelevant because a region cannot ever change. That is fine, but your argument is different from Nei or BajanYankee who are primary defenders of what we can call the "Small Northeast" idea. If you consider the census bureau to be final authority then that is fine, but I am rather enjoying looking at cultural/economic/political aspects for defining regions, consider them far more important.

When I lived in Canada for example, there were English Canadian communities in Quebec that did not speak French but English, and were in every way more like Ontarians - but according to official definitions they were Québecois. But they wouldn't call themselves that because in common speech the term Québecois carries cultural undertones. Only French speakers identify with the term, despite the fact that "officially" everyone inside the province is. It is an example of people who are officially considered one thing by certain government bodies, but as something else when it comes to cultural realities.

As such I cannot debate with you, and according to the rules you are setting, you are correct. According to the Census Bureau MD and DE are in the south. There is no evidence I can offer to counter that unless the Census Bureau places these states in the Northeast. Similarly, there is nothing I can do to convince someone who only looks at geographic location that Virginia is southern. After all, the geographic north/south border is somewhere between Virginia and North Carolina. But of course when most people say Virginia and Kentucky are southern, they are speaking of culture which is far more important and usually implied. If someone only looks at geography and discounts, culture, politics, economics, etc, then Los Angeles is the deep south.

But if we are talking about the cultural, political, or economic terms, the picture begins to look very different. And I don't mean any disrespect, but for me and many others, cultural/economic/political realities are more important when defining regions than what particular government bodies define. This is why people often speak of "northern Europe" and include Germanic countries but not Belarus, or why when people speak of western Europe they usually include Austria and Sweden while leaving out countries like the Czech Republic, Solvenia, and Croatia. In terms of culture I am quite positive that the consensus among Americans north, south, east, and west, would be that MD is a northeastern state, just like Austria and Sweden are usually considered to be "western" while Slovenia usually is not. When you ask if MD is part of the southeast or northeast it carries cultural undertones for many, while for others (like you) the answer may be as simple as what the census bureau says or where an 18th century boundary settling disputes between MD and PA was drawn.

Anyways, BajanYankee has pointed to opinions and polls on City Data as proof of a place being northeastern/southeastern. The post BigCityDreamer has provided the poll for was a response to BajanYankee's use of City Data opinions as evidence. But of course according to the convictions you have repeatedly made known, you must consider BajanYankee's poll to be equally irrelevant. Why didn't you tell BajanYankee his poll was irrelevant? Why is it that you haven't pointed out that any of his evidence (such as ancestry statistics) is irrelevant? If your belief is that polls, opinions, culture, economics, politics, religion, and linguistics are irrelevant, then please be consistent and call out BajanYankee and Nei for also posting pages of "irrelevant" information!
I read the article on Wikipedia about the Northeastern United States and one part says that the Census Bureau was considering putting Maryland and Delaware in the Census's Northeast division due to the limitations of the Census's Northeast definition at one point, but the Census has just been too lazy to actually do it. I know the Census regions and divisions are little inaccurate due to Maryland and Delaware not being part of the Middle Atlantic Division of the Northeast and instead, both states are placed in the South Atlantic Division of the South, despite both being Mid Atlantic states.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
3,584 posts, read 2,505,374 times
Reputation: 2927
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Why didn't you tell BajanYankee his poll was irrelevant? Why is it that you haven't pointed out that any of his evidence (such as ancestry statistics) is irrelevant? If your belief is that polls, opinions, culture, economics, politics, religion, and linguistics are irrelevant, then please be consistent and call out BajanYankee and Nei for also posting pages of "irrelevant" information!
Because I haven't read every single post... I'm trying to keep up but city data is proving to be the most active forum I've ever tried to keep up with lol.

All polls are irrelevant. Until it is officially declared that the northeast regions have moved then I will stick on the side of the census bureau and will point to you all that this region moving would be the same as throwing any other state in a separate region due to cultural differences.

We don't take a state out of it's region because of changes to culture in the same way we don't add states to other regions.

Maryland has already attempted to secede from the south... Why would they need to if they are already part of the northeast?

Hint: it's because it's not part of the northeast!
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:11 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 2,754,501 times
Reputation: 931
Demographically, Maryland resembles Virginia more than it does any other state. Of course if we use "affluence" as the primary criteria for being "Northeastern" Virginia will have to be included. It ranks 5th in per capita income and 7th in median household income.

List of U.S. states by income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Virginia also ranks #6 for college graduates and #4 for advanced degrees.

List of U.S. states by educational attainment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by King of Kensington; 08-21-2014 at 11:38 PM..
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:27 AM
 
2,331 posts, read 3,808,383 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
I read the article on Wikipedia about the Northeastern United States and one part says that the Census Bureau was considering putting Maryland and Delaware in the Census's Northeast division due to the limitations of the Census's Northeast definition at one point, but the Census has just been too lazy to actually do it. I know the Census regions and divisions are little inaccurate due to Maryland and Delaware not being part of the Middle Atlantic Division of the Northeast and instead, both states are placed in the South Atlantic Division of the South, despite both being Mid Atlantic states.
Whoever wrote that "article" must have the education of a 6th grader.
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Old 08-22-2014, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,263,727 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbesdj View Post
Anyways, BajanYankee has pointed to opinions and polls on City Data as proof of a place being northeastern/southeastern. The post BigCityDreamer has provided the poll for was a response to BajanYankee's use of City Data opinions as evidence. But of course according to the convictions you have repeatedly made known, you must consider BajanYankee's poll to be equally irrelevant. Why didn't you tell BajanYankee his poll was irrelevant? Why is it that you haven't pointed out that any of his evidence (such as ancestry statistics) is irrelevant? If your belief is that polls, opinions, culture, economics, politics, religion, and linguistics are irrelevant, then please be consistent and call out BajanYankee and Nei for also posting pages of "irrelevant" information!
To his credit, he's made the same argument throughout the entire thread. He's said repeatedly that the Northeast region is essentially immutable. It's often difficult to tell who he's responding to as he doesn't always quote people, but he's at least been consistent. Credit should be given where it's due.

The polls are relevant, but more for the fact that they evince consistently violent disagreement on the issue, which suggests that there is no clear answer about Maryland's southerness or northerness. If the answer was so clear, then we wouldn't have all of these threads (going on for pages) and we wouldn't see articles in the Washington Post, Baltimore Sun and City Paper (these appear at least every year or so) raising this "age old debate." To me, the only logical inference to draw from the "evidence" is that a conclusive statement about the state's regional identity cannot be made one way or the other. Yet we have people who do this (you, m$guy, cpterp, BCD) all of the time.

Given that no one can unequivocally state that Maryland is either southern or northern, it seems to me that the only logical conclusion is that it's neither.
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