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Old 08-22-2014, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,304 posts, read 26,308,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
Until it is officially declared that the northeast regions have moved then I will stick on the side of the census bureau and will point to you all that this region moving would be the same as throwing any other state in a separate region due to cultural differences.
Who is going to officially declare it? The Census Bureau isn't going to. Besides, I don't think there are "official" regions anyway. Regional definitions are partly objective, imo. It makes sense to group certain states together based on history, demographics, etc. It's also partly subjective as far as what the people living there actually think they are. And then much of the subjective is informed by the objective similarities and differences among states.

I agree with you (I think) insofar as it being a bit of an issue when states begin to flip flop between regions. If we agree that "culture does not stop at state lines," as "culture" is being defined by some on here, then there's really no limit to what places can become "northeastern." In 40 years, when North Carolina is dominated by White liberals with non-southern accents, Blacks and Latinos, will they be able to claim "northeastern" status? Or will they just come up with some new name for their own distinct region because they find the idea of being mentioned in the same breath with states like Mississippi and Alabama to be utterly repugnant?

My personal opinion is that history plays a bigger role than most are willing to acknowledge. No matter how rich, liberal and "non-southern" Virginia and North Carolina become, they can't go back in time and share the same history with northeastern states from 1670 forward. I think each step of the journey matters, not just the steps from a certain (recent) point in time.
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Derby, CT
3,584 posts, read 2,510,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Who is going to officially declare it? The Census Bureau isn't going to.
Maybe, Maybe not. They probably will not.

Quote:
Besides, I don't think there are "official" regions anyway
Sure there are! If there weren't, then we could just wildly place whatever state we want in whatever region.

Quote:
Regional definitions are partly objective, imo.
I presume you mean partly subjective... though if it's only partly subjective then it also would mean that it's partly objective lol.

Regions are objective. Regional differences are subjective.

Quote:
It makes sense to group certain states together based on history, demographics, etc. It's also partly subjective as far as what the people living there actually think they are. And then much of the subjective is informed by the objective similarities and differences among states.
On the side of history, the lines have been drawn. I agree that it is an issue if states flip-flop regions which is why, unless there is objective non-cultural changing, non-opinionated data that supports the idea that what has already been established as the northeast is missing those two states... then there is no reason to change the lines already there.

If we give the go to MD and DE, then we have to expand those rules to apply to all border states of any region. I'm not prepared to accept such a proposal.

Maryland and Delaware, stay in your own damn region


For what it's worth, I acknowledge that MD and DE have changed over time to become more in line with the northern states and agree that cultural differences don't stop at the state lines. I also think those arguments are irrelevant to the very much objective regional lines.
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:00 PM
Status: "Retired" (set 1 day ago)
 
620 posts, read 689,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
Maybe, Maybe not. They probably will not.


Sure there are! If there weren't, then we could just wildly place whatever state we want in whatever region.


I presume you mean partly subjective... though if it's only partly subjective then it also would mean that it's partly objective lol.

Regions are objective. Regional differences are subjective.



On the side of history, the lines have been drawn. I agree that it is an issue if states flip-flop regions which is why, unless there is objective non-cultural changing, non-opinionated data that supports the idea that what has already been established as the northeast is missing those two states... then there is no reason to change the lines already there.

If we give the go to MD and DE, then we have to expand those rules to apply to all border states of any region. I'm not prepared to accept such a proposal.

Maryland and Delaware, stay in your own damn region


For what it's worth, I acknowledge that MD and DE have changed over time to become more in line with the northern states and agree that cultural differences don't stop at the state lines. I also think those arguments are irrelevant to the very much objective regional lines.
Maryland and Delaware's own region is the Mid-Atlantic, which also includes Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
3,584 posts, read 2,510,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
Maryland and Delaware's own region is the Mid-Atlantic, which also includes Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
Uhm, yeah... That's correct?

Not sure where you were going with that lol
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:01 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,545,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muppethammer26 View Post
Maryland and Delaware's own region is the Mid-Atlantic, which also includes Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
And New York.
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:03 PM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
45,992 posts, read 42,080,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
And New York.
It only makes sense for downstate NY to be considered mid-Atlantic. The rest of the state? At least half of upstate NY is more Great Lakes than Atlantic anything.
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:08 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 2,759,299 times
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Maryland/DC is not in the same region as New York. I see the Mid-Atlantic region (really a region within a region) has two competing definitions: the "non-New England" Northeast and MD/DC/VA. However NY does not have more in common with MD/DC than it does with New England, so trying to "tack on" MD/DC to the same region as NY/NJ/PA just seems desperate.

Furthermore, Pennsylvania is clearly a Northeastern state and it's not particularly affluent and it is filled with white working class "Reagan Democrats." So why is "affluence" being used as a criteria to merit the inclusion of MD/DC in the Northeast when the Volvo-driving "latte liberal" stereotype doesn't really apply to PA?
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
4,472 posts, read 7,540,170 times
Reputation: 4367
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I agree with you (I think) insofar as it being a bit of an issue when states begin to flip flop between regions. If we agree that "culture does not stop at state lines," as "culture" is being defined by some on here, then there's really no limit to what places can become "northeastern." In 40 years, when North Carolina is dominated by White liberals with non-southern accents, Blacks and Latinos, will they be able to claim "northeastern" status? Or will they just come up with some new name for their own distinct region because they find the idea of being mentioned in the same breath with states like Mississippi and Alabama to be utterly repugnant?
I think that's a valid point. I acknowledge that Maryland, for example, can make an argument based on a variety of historical, geographical, and present-day factors to be included in the Northeast -- but when states/urban regions further south start to adopt a cultural atmosphere that is more similar to points north (e.g., the Charlottes, Atlantas and Miamis of the world), we obviously can and should still recognize them as Southern.
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
4,472 posts, read 7,540,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Kensington View Post
Maryland/DC is not in the same region as New York. I see the Mid-Atlantic region (really a region within a region) has two competing definitions: the "non-New England" Northeast and MD/DC/VA. However NY does not have more in common with MD/DC than it does with New England, so trying to "tack on" MD/DC to the same region as NY/NJ/PA just seems desperate.

Furthermore, Pennsylvania is clearly a Northeastern state and it's not particularly affluent and it is filled with white working class "Reagan Democrats." So why is "affluence" being used as a criteria to merit the inclusion of MD/DC in the Northeast when the Volvo-driving "latte liberal" stereotype doesn't really apply to PA?
Eh, that's an over-simplification (and increasingly outdated as PA's demographics have shifted pretty dramatically since the years of Reagan; the "latte liberal" crowd is definitely alive-and-well in the Philly and Pittsburgh areas).

More to your point, this is not a regional phenomenon (no state in the Northeast is uniformly affluent and liberal) -- it is an urban v. rural phenomenon. You can find yuppies in urban areas across the entire US.

Last edited by Duderino; 08-22-2014 at 08:28 PM..
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Old 08-22-2014, 09:29 PM
 
12,698 posts, read 10,545,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
It only makes sense for downstate NY to be considered mid-Atlantic. The rest of the state? At least half of upstate NY is more Great Lakes than Atlantic anything.
I do agree, but again - Census does count the whole state as Mid-Atlantic. And I personally don't agree with splitting states between regions/taking part of a state out of a region.
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