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If you look at the history of Maryland and Delaware, there is no question Maryland was a southern state, and Delaware was a state with some northern and some southern characteristics. Admittedly the "colonization" of these states (particularly Maryland around the DC area) by transplanted northeasterners has changed the states considerably culturally.
And even that's overstated. The pluarlity of domestic migrants to the DC region come from the Southeastern U.S., not the Northeast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton
But the problem with taking them out of the Southeast is it looks like Virginia, and perhaps North Carolina, are headed in the same general direction. So does that mean in ten years Virginia will be northeastern, and in 20 years North Carolina? I think not. It just means that like (most of) Florida, they are southern states which won't be very culturally southern any longer. Thus by the same definition, Maryland and perhaps Delaware could also be considered still part of the Southeast - just not "culturally Southern."
And even that's overstated. The pluarlity of domestic migrants to the DC region come from the Southeastern U.S., not the Northeast.
Are you sure about that? I've tended to meet a lot more native Northeasterners/Midwesterners than Southerners. At the very least, as DC has become inextricably tied to the Northeast Corridor, I would imagine migration flows have changed, as well.
Transplants who come to the Washington DC area and make it here for the long haul become absorbed in the DC bubble. For the most part, they no longer retain the characteristics of wherever they arrived from.
Even the U.S. Census Bureau classified MD and DE as being part of the South region of the U.S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415
And though the federal government is not always right nor can it always be trusted, it does clearly delineate the regions in the US Census and nothing south of NJ and PA is considered northeastern to our federal government...
Yes, it's true that the Census assigns states to regions for its decennial tally and reporting, but that's about it as far any "official" government use goes. Other federal agencies assign the states to regions in ways that make sense for their operations. For example:
. . . and on and on if anyone cares to google further. So much for what is "considered northeastern to our federal government." In fact, I have not found a single federal agency that organizes their operations into regions that match the census reporting designations. Gosh - even the US Census splits its operations into regions that differ from those in their own decennial report: Regional Offices - U.S. Census Bureau. Nevertheless, if some folks feel the 10 year Census report that is the end-all/be-all of regional assignments, so be it. Just don't claim that the rest of our federal governments follow that convention.
There will always be a debate about which "regions" states in transitions zones fall into. Is Delaware north or south? Is Texas south or or southwest? Is Michigan north or mid-west? Is Oklahoma south or a plains state? And just which states are plains states, anyhow? Etc. The truth is, there is no "official" designation of US regions. "Regions" are merely conceptual conventions some folks use to orangize certain states in their/our minds. Discussing the traits of "border" or "transition" states and what they have in common with their neighbors can be interesting and fun. However, some folks on this forum seem to have concluded there is an official assignment of each state to one and only one region, and anyone holding different views is "wrong." Whether it is a need to have to put everything into a box that brings order to their world, or that they can't let go of what Miss Walters taught them in 4th grade US geography class, I don't know. I do know that if anyone expects all people to accept that their concept of what constitutes US regions is the one great truth, they are on a fool's errand.
Yes, it's true that the Census assigns states to regions for its decennial tally and reporting, but that's about it as far any "official" government use goes. Other federal agencies assign the states to regions in ways that make sense for their operations. For example:
. . . and on and on if anyone cares to google further. So much for what is "considered northeastern to our federal government." In fact, I have not found a single federal agency that organizes their operations into regions that match the census reporting designations. Gosh - even the US Census splits its operations into regions that differ from those in their own decennial report: Regional Offices - U.S. Census Bureau. Nevertheless, if some folks feel the 10 year Census report that is the end-all/be-all of regional assignments, so be it. Just don't claim that the rest of our federal governments follow that convention.
There will always be a debate about which "regions" states in transitions zones fall into. Is Delaware north or south? Is Texas south or or southwest? Is Michigan north or mid-west? Is Oklahoma south or a plains state? And just which states are plains states, anyhow? Etc. The truth is, there is no "official" designation of US regions. "Regions" are merely conceptual conventions some folks use to orangize certain states in their/our minds. Discussing the traits of "border" or "transition" states and what they have in common with their neighbors can be interesting and fun. However, some folks on this forum seem to have concluded there is an official assignment of each state to one and only one region, and anyone holding different views is "wrong." Whether it is a need to have to put everything into a box that brings order to their world, or that they can't let go of what Miss Walters taught them in 4th grade US geography class, I don't know. I do know that if anyone expects all people to accept that their concept of what constitutes US regions is the one great truth, they are on a fool's errand.
Those regions are all pretty similar though. In half, anything below NJ is not placed with NJ, NY and everything north of them, even PA is sometimes placed separate from NJ/NY. In a few, the majority of the East Coast is simply listed as "East." I see those maps splitting into New England/Mid-Atlantic/South-Atlantic more than I see them delineating a specific northeast.
Seriously, the only time I've ever seen anyone question the generally accepted consensus of the Northeast (and yes, there is one and that is NJ/PA/NY and New England) is on city data, which does not surprise me at all. The only time I've ever seen the suggestion that DE/MD are Northeastern is on city data - again, not surprising given the way some people here talk.
I've seen DE/MD called Mid-Atlantic, sure, but Northeastern? Never - coming from someone who lives in an uncontested Northeastern state - New Jersey. And forget about Virginia. Debate on whatever you all want, but there are some states that are unarguably Northeastern and those are NJ, NY, PA, and all of New England.
Ask any resident on the street of any of those states if VA or MD are Northeastern and I bet you most would call you crazy for even asking. Here, we generally view those states as Southern, especially VA. IMO, any state that seceded from the Union cannot be considered "north" anything.
People can absolutely think what they want, and trust me I know they do, but there IS a generally accepted opinion on these types of things, but people can certainly disagree and have their own opinion on what state is in each region.
Those regions are all pretty similar though. In half, anything below NJ is not placed with NJ, NY and everything north of them, even PA is sometimes placed separate from NJ/NY. In a few, the majority of the East Coast is simply listed as "East." I see those maps splitting into New England/Mid-Atlantic/South-Atlantic more than I see them delineating a specific northeast.
Seriously, the only time I've ever seen anyone question the generally accepted consensus of the Northeast (and yes, there is one and that is NJ/PA/NY and New England) is on city data, which does not surprise me at all. The only time I've ever seen the suggestion that DE/MD are Northeastern is on city data - again, not surprising given the way some people here talk.
I've seen DE/MD called Mid-Atlantic, sure, but Northeastern? Never - coming from someone who lives in an uncontested Northeastern state - New Jersey. And forget about Virginia. Debate on whatever you all want, but there are some states that are unarguably Northeastern and those are NJ, NY, PA, and all of New England.
Ask any resident on the street of any of those states if VA or MD are Northeastern and I bet you most would call you crazy for even asking. Here, we generally view those states as Southern, especially VA. IMO, any state that seceded from the Union cannot be considered "north" anything.
People can absolutely think what they want, and trust me I know they do, but there IS a generally accepted opinion on these types of things, but people can certainly disagree and have their own opinion on what state is in each region.
Sometimes New Jersey is also separated from New York and instead, New Jersey is placed in the Mid-Atlantic region with Pennsylvania, Delaware and Maryland.
Delaware used to be part of Pennsylvania, a northeastern state, so Delaware is a northeastern state too. The Northeast should not lose some land to another region. Plus, 9 states is an odd number, so 10 or 12 would be better for the Northeast. Even you live in a state that is right next to Delaware and Pennsylvania and you don't want to consider them the same region that you live in?
Sometimes New Jersey is also separated from New York and instead, New Jersey is placed in the Mid-Atlantic region with Pennsylvania, Delaware and Maryland.
Delaware used to be part of Pennsylvania, a northeastern state, so Delaware is a northeastern state too. The Northeast should not lose some land to another region. Plus, 9 states is an odd number, so 10 or 12 would be better for the Northeast. Even you live in a state that is right next to Delaware and Pennsylvania and you don't want to consider them the same region that you live in?
Maryland never seceded from the Union.
If NJ is separated, NY comes with it because NY is never considered New England - never. Sometimes, rarely, for random national companies that create their own maps, NY is left by itself because of its size and population, and probably because of NYC. Usually, NY is paired with NJ no matter what.
What are you going on about with odd/even numbers and land being taken from the northeast? Again, these regions are separated by CULTURE, not what makes the map look nice and even as a whole. Who cares if the Southeast is considered a bigger region than the Northeast? You will notice a cultural difference in VA compared to anything north of and including NJ. There may be cultural overlap in, say, extreme southwestern NJ and northern Delaware, but that is to be expected because they border one another at those points. Culture does not exactly change at state lines, but it does change at some point a bit further within states per region. Even within NJ, northern and southern portions of the state are different but no one sane considers NJ to be a southern state. Eastern NY near the CT and MA state lines may seem culturally like New England, but that doesn't mean NY is a New England state.
Delaware is usually considered neither northern nor southern, today at least, it is usually considered solidly Mid-Atlantic. Same with MD. NJ, NY, PA, and sometimes VA can also be considered Mid-Atlantic in some cases.
I know Maryland never seceded. I was talking about Virginia.
If you really want to draw a giant "t" across a map of the United States of America and delineate regions based on making things look even, go right ahead, but most people are not going to agree with you - like they haven't for months now when you discuss these things.
No. Would most people agree that South Carolina is a northern state? How about that New York is a Midwestern state? New Jersey is a southern one? California is eastern? Is New York in New England or not?
To an extent, there is a general consensus on regional boundaries.
You're free to think affirmative of any of my above questions, but you will be in the minority, and many would also probably think you're nuts. But you're free to think whatever you'd like anyway. It just doesn't mean you're "right."
As I said before, the Northeastern states are NJ, PA, NY, CT, ME, RI, MA, NH and VT. States like MD and DE are grey area states because although they are definitely not northeastern culturally, they are also not stereotypically southern states. Some people assume that it is being insinuated that DE and MD are stereotypically southern just because they are not Northeastern states but this is not the case. Again I repeat, just because they are not Northeastern states it does not mean that they are southern.
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