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Regardless of opinions Maryland and Delaware are still Southern States....
Erhm, what gives you authority over anyone else? It might be a southern state for you, but it isn't for me. Contrary to what you say, it has EVERYTHING to do with opinion. That's why you're on a forum, right? To discuss opinions.
I'd agree that many parts of Maryland seem "southern," but I don't feel like I'm a southerner, and I'm from MD. Most of my friends don't think so either, although some of them do. Again, it has to do with opinion.
I know the problem you might have with that: MD was a slave state, so therefore it's southern. There's no argument. But it's not 1863. Cultures change. People change. I don't think it's clearly southern anymore. Just see all the polls we've had on this subject: people just don't agree with anyone else... Isn't that proof enough that it's not as clear-cut as you're making it out?
Please, attempt to have a logical discussion, rather than shut out other people. If you don't listen to others, you have no place on a forum.
My point is: it's not clearly a southern state, even though it might be more southern in some aspects or vice versa. Can you refute this? Can you provide evidence that EVERYONE (or the vast majority of people) thinks that Maryland is a southern state? Because if you can, if you can cite a source that supports your argument that everyone is of the same opinion as you are, then I concede that you are right, and that I'm a loon. But you can't, because a lot of people don't think MD is southern. There are many organizations (NWS, FBI, USDA and a bunch more) that don't agree with you. I 'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that you can't pass off your opinion as true.
Just tell me if I'm right or not: not everyone agrees with you, and MD's southern-ness isn't clear for a large proportion of Americans.
If you don't agree with me, it means you're not listening to others. Again, your opinion isn't wrong, but by no means are you unconditionally right just because you say so. People's opinions matter. Please accept that and provide support for your arguments, rather than justify yourself through a "because I said so" attitude.
Plenty of people have said that culture doesn't stop at state lines. Nobody's really arguing over that. What I've said (and I believe eschaton has said the same) is that Maryland is a southern state that doesn't feel culturally southern anymore. It's the same way Miami is not exempted from the South simply because it has a more transient character than it did in the past.
Yeah, this was basically my point. Plantation slavery was a big thing in Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore - not a dying institution like it was in Delaware. In 1860 half the black population was still slaves. The Union Army basically engaged in a hostile occupation of Baltimore to stop the city from rebelling - placing artillery on Federal Hill and threatening to level the city at the first sign of revolt. While unlike most other southern states blacks never lost the right to vote (Democrats tried on three different occasions), it was a Jim Crow state with public segregation, and interracial marriage was banned through to the middle of the 20th century.
The DC suburbs are not particularly southern any more - although it's arguable that places like Prince Georges County - the black suburbs - do have a lot of southern characteristics (certainly the local black population is a lot more southern feeling than in metros to the north). The remaining rural parts of southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore are southern feeling (for that matter, so is much of Delaware south of the Canal). And the Western panhandle is northern Appalachian - whatever you call it - and not too different from nearby areas of West Virginia, Southwestern Pennsylvania, and Virginia. As for the Baltimore metro - I'm not sure what you'd call it. It has some northern and some southern characteristics, and many of the working-class whites actually migrated from Appalachia in the early 20th century.
Regardless, I don't know if this makes Maryland a Southern state. But I'm pretty sure it's enough to say it's not Northeastern. Delaware is more of a mix, because the northern third is basically indistinguishable from the Philly suburbs, but the southern 2/3rds (below the canal - "Lower and Slower") is actually fairly similar to any part of "Tidewater" Virginia, once you get outside of Dover or the beach towns.
Yeah, this was basically my point. Plantation slavery was a big thing in Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore - not a dying institution like it was in Delaware. In 1860 half the black population was still slaves. The Union Army basically engaged in a hostile occupation of Baltimore to stop the city from rebelling - placing artillery on Federal Hill and threatening to level the city at the first sign of revolt. While unlike most other southern states blacks never lost the right to vote (Democrats tried on three different occasions), it was a Jim Crow state with public segregation, and interracial marriage was banned through to the middle of the 20th century.
The DC suburbs are not particularly southern any more - although it's arguable that places like Prince Georges County - the black suburbs - do have a lot of southern characteristics (certainly the local black population is a lot more southern feeling than in metros to the north). The remaining rural parts of southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore are southern feeling (for that matter, so is much of Delaware south of the Canal). And the Western panhandle is northern Appalachian - whatever you call it - and not too different from nearby areas of West Virginia, Southwestern Pennsylvania, and Virginia. As for the Baltimore metro - I'm not sure what you'd call it. It has some northern and some southern characteristics, and many of the working-class whites actually migrated from Appalachia in the early 20th century.
Regardless, I don't know if this makes Maryland a Southern state. But I'm pretty sure it's enough to say it's not Northeastern. Delaware is more of a mix, because the northern third is basically indistinguishable from the Philly suburbs, but the southern 2/3rds (below the canal - "Lower and Slower") is actually fairly similar to any part of "Tidewater" Virginia, once you get outside of Dover or the beach towns.
What about Southern New Jersey (excluding the Philly suburbs in the Northwest), which is similar to the southern 2/3rds of Delaware (undeveloped land, farms, low population, beaches, etc.)? Is it also similar to Tidewater Virginia?
What about Southern New Jersey (excluding the Philly suburbs in the Northwest) and Eastern Maryland, which both of them are similar to the southern 2/3rds of Delaware (undeveloped land, farms, low population, beaches, etc.)? Are both also similar to Tidewater Virginia?
Southern New Jersey is not really southern. Burlington, Camden and Gloucester counties are just Philly suburbs for the most part. The Jersey Shore is pretty culturally/politically similar (white and fairly conservative) all the way from South Amboy all the way to Cape May, with the exception of Atlantic City itself, which has a large black/Latino population who works in the casinos. I do think that Salem and Cumberland counties have a very slight touch of the south though. They remain largely agricultural, and actually have a rural black population, which is a rarity in northern states. The local dialect is not Philadelphia English, and is somewhat similar to much of the Delmarva. Still, I'd just call it the northernmost place with a southern influence. And it's just two counties (and sparsely populated ones) at that.
As for the Eastern Shore, there is no doubt that it's the most southern portion of Maryland by far.
Yeah, this was basically my point. Plantation slavery was a big thing in Southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore - not a dying institution like it was in Delaware. In 1860 half the black population was still slaves. The Union Army basically engaged in a hostile occupation of Baltimore to stop the city from rebelling - placing artillery on Federal Hill and threatening to level the city at the first sign of revolt. While unlike most other southern states blacks never lost the right to vote (Democrats tried on three different occasions), it was a Jim Crow state with public segregation, and interracial marriage was banned through to the middle of the 20th century.
The DC suburbs are not particularly southern any more - although it's arguable that places like Prince Georges County - the black suburbs - do have a lot of southern characteristics (certainly the local black population is a lot more southern feeling than in metros to the north). The remaining rural parts of southern Maryland and the Eastern Shore are southern feeling (for that matter, so is much of Delaware south of the Canal). And the Western panhandle is northern Appalachian - whatever you call it - and not too different from nearby areas of West Virginia, Southwestern Pennsylvania, and Virginia. As for the Baltimore metro - I'm not sure what you'd call it. It has some northern and some southern characteristics, and many of the working-class whites actually migrated from Appalachia in the early 20th century.
Regardless, I don't know if this makes Maryland a Southern state. But I'm pretty sure it's enough to say it's not Northeastern. Delaware is more of a mix, because the northern third is basically indistinguishable from the Philly suburbs, but the southern 2/3rds (below the canal - "Lower and Slower") is actually fairly similar to any part of "Tidewater" Virginia, once you get outside of Dover or the beach towns.
I wish there were a way to make a post "sticky." This should be the post everyone refers to from now on this topic.
I was agreeing with the post in its entirety. Not just the parts relating to the history of the state (which does impact the present).
The vast majority of Maryland residents live in the Baltimore-DC combined statistical area. This is also by far where the wealth economy of the state is concentrated. If someone moves to Maryland, chances are they will very likely live and work in this area - particularly in the most built-up parts of it - and not in a sparsely populated area of the rural eastern shore. That is mainly for catching some waves at the beach once a year.
So, central Maryland is what is mainly relevant to modern times as far as the cultural and regional identity of the state goes. The eastern shore has some interesting wildlife, marshland and marinas though.
Last edited by BigCityDreamer; 07-29-2014 at 11:36 AM..
The vast majority of Maryland residents live in the Baltimore-DC combined statistical area. This is also by far where the wealth economy of the state is concentrated. If someone moves to Maryland, chances are they will very likely live and work in this area - particularly in the most built-up parts of it - and not in a sparsely populated area of the rural eastern shore.
So, central Maryland is what is mainly relevant to modern times as far as the cultural and regional identity of the state goes.
He was talking about Maryland as a whole, which includes Central Maryland.
Southern New Jersey is not really southern. Burlington, Camden and Gloucester counties are just Philly suburbs for the most part. The Jersey Shore is pretty culturally/politically similar (white and fairly conservative) all the way from South Amboy all the way to Cape May, with the exception of Atlantic City itself, which has a large black/Latino population who works in the casinos. I do think that Salem and Cumberland counties have a very slight touch of the south though. They remain largely agricultural, and actually have a rural black population, which is a rarity in northern states. The local dialect is not Philadelphia English, and is somewhat similar to much of the Delmarva. Still, I'd just call it the northernmost place with a southern influence. And it's just two counties (and sparsely populated ones) at that.
As for the Eastern Shore, there is no doubt that it's the most southern portion of Maryland by far.
I've never considered any part of New Jersey southern. I've lived here my whole life, in the northern portion yes, but I've gone to Cape May yearly nearly my whole life as well and have never heard the suggestion anything south Jersey is southern. Cape May area, as well as the southern shore, is a mix of both Philly and New York/Nee Jersey visitors, and a lot of Canadians as well. I know that southwest Jersey is a bit more "rural" or whatever, but still - never heard the possibility. The suggestion is insane. NJ is thoroughly northeastern, at all its points.
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