Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Actually, most Marylanders take it for granted that Maryland is mainly a northeastern state nowadays. Maryland falls within the northeast BosWash corridor. The "mid-Atlantic" designation again simply means lower northeast. It's not something that is debated or talked about much.
On the other hand, the objection to this identity for Maryland seems to come more from people who live in states north of Maryland.
Yes, because it's historically been a Southern state until pretty recently when the shift occurred (and that shift has not been completely Northern). It's hard for people to overcome a change like that. In my NJ school system, we were never taught that MD is Northern. We were taught it is Southern. It's always been acknowledged that it's at the very top of the South, not as Southern as like Mississippi, but it's Southern. Because of this, I can't help but balk at the suggestion MD is Northeastern. It's not something I was ever told. I actually never even saw the suggestion until here on city data, no one I know IRL has ever suggested it to me. It's either Southern or mid-Atlantic - I literally know not one person from my area who has said that MD is a Northeastern state, like NJ is.
I guess it's hard for those from solidly, un-debated (by anyone sane) Northeastern states, like NJ, to hear that "border states" can swing in our direction. At this time, I've moved beyond my school teachings that MD is Southern. I don't think it is anymore, though I used to. I think it has Southern qualities, but I think it is mid-Atlantic, which means it also has northern qualities. The mid-Atlantic is actually a weird region. I feel like it was created to separate the rest of the NE from New England, another clearly separated region. The mid-Atlantic, depending on how it is defined, can be split further into North or South. Sometimes even NC is included in the mid-Atlantic designation - that is certainly not a NE state. Neither is VA.
To be honest, most people on this website who claim MD is Northeastern, in my experience, are Marylanders from the DC area who seem to dislike the idea that MD is generally and historically considered Southern because nowadays, being associated with the South has somehow become negative compared to being associated with the Northeast. I couldn't explain why, I'm guessing it's political, but I like the South.
I've seen things like, "Us, in Maryland? Southern? We CAN'T be Southern, for this, this, and this reason. See? We're obviously more Northern." Basically, all I hear in those posts is, "Ew, Southern. No way." That attitude I get vibes of is what makes me leery of the suggestion MD is Northeastern. I feel like it's claimed by those who do not want to be associated with the South, because somehow the Northeast is more desirably politically and maybe even culturally.
To be honest, most people on this website who claim MD is Northeastern, in my experience, are Marylanders from the DC area who seem to dislike the idea that MD is generally and historically considered Southern because nowadays, being associated with the South has somehow become negative compared to being associated with the Northeast. I couldn't explain why, I'm guessing it's political, but I like the South.
I've seen things like, "Us, in Maryland? Southern? We CAN'T be Southern, for this, this, and this reason. See? We're obviously more Northern." Basically, all I hear in those posts is, "Ew, Southern. No way." That attitude I get vibes of is what makes me leery of the suggestion MD is Northeastern. I feel like it's claimed by those who do not want to be associated with the South, because somehow the Northeast is more desirably politically and maybe even culturally.
All I have to say is that you don't hear people from states like Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Virginia(outside the DC metro area) wanting to be included as being part of the Northeast and being ashamed to be associated with the South.
If you ask me, Maryland was never truly a Southern state like the others. It has been historically a border state but now it clearly leans more Northern today than anything else.
Seriously, the only time I've ever seen anyone question the generally accepted consensus of the Northeast (and yes, there is one and that is NJ/PA/NY and New England) is on city data, which does not surprise me at all. The only time I've ever seen the suggestion that DE/MD are Northeastern is on city data - again, not surprising given the way some people here talk.
I've seen DE/MD called Mid-Atlantic, sure, but Northeastern? Never - coming from someone who lives in an uncontested Northeastern state - New Jersey. And forget about Virginia. Debate on whatever you all want, but there are some states that are unarguably Northeastern and those are NJ, NY, PA, and all of New England.
And the only time I've ever seen people vehemently asserting that MD and DE are not the northeast is here on City Data. It seems that you along with the dollar sign MK guy (#mk3895 or whatever) and BajanYankee and nep321 make appearances on every thread to tell everyone that Maryland is in fact the south. Its honestly the same handful of people who take this stance on every north/south thread.
You say that just because you in New Jersey have never heard of MD being the north (living my life as a Marylander I find this extremely difficult to believe) then it must be the fact. Ironically, I am an actual Marylander, not northern New Jerseyite, and have never ever been called a southerner by anyone outside of Maryland or Delaware including those from New Jersey. Believe it or not, when we go to "real" south we are "Yankees" just like you. I have never ever been called a southerner by a Californian or Iowan or anyone from an unbiased region. I even lived in Canada where lo-and behold I was from the "northeastern US". In the few instances where I have claimed to be a "southerner" to people from Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Canada, the midwest or the west, I have been met with blank stares and a question of amazement that Maryland could possibly be southern. The idea that Maryland is a southern state is really just laughable to actual southerners. You might as well toss PA, NJ, and Ohio in there as well.
I personally like the south better, so I don't know how you are going to claim I have a problem with the south and "want" to be northeastern. If I had to pick a region to be a part of I'd pick the south, but the reality is that Maryland is just another rich liberal northeastern blue state. If you want to chalk this up to people from Maryland trying to be what they aren't, well then that's your choice, but the reality is that Maryland and Delaware are culturally, politically, and economically part of the northeast. But hey, you are from northern New Jersey, so you must know better than actual Marylanders what we are considered when interacting with outsiders, right? Here's a test: tell those nice Texans that Maryland is the south and look at the response. That should go over well.
I've seen things like, "Us, in Maryland? Southern? We CAN'T be Southern, for this, this, and this reason. See? We're obviously more Northern." Basically, all I hear in those posts is, "Ew, Southern. No way." That attitude I get vibes of is what makes me leery of the suggestion MD is Northeastern. I feel like it's claimed by those who do not want to be associated with the South, because somehow the Northeast is more desirably politically and maybe even culturally.
And basically all I hear is you saying is "Maryland? No way, that couldn't possibly be the northeast. For this, this, and this reason. They're obviously more southern. Ew, Maryland, no way". As if the northeast is some sort of exclusive club for the pure-blooded only. This is the kind of attitude that makes me leery of the suggestion that Maryland is southern.
IMHO the south is "more desireable politically and maybe even culturally". So what's the excuse now? Let me guess - my hatred of the south is making me identify Maryland as the northeast, right? Give me a break. The idea that Maryland is southern is laughable, and one that is boosted only by the same handful posters on City Data, and not much in the real world. If you were really convinced that Maryland isn't the northeast, then you wouldn't make countless posts trying to convince everyone otherwise.
What's the big deal if it's an odd number? It doesn't matter.
Delaware is officially below the Mason-Dixie line. Much of it is very characteristic of the South (flat land, divided highways, strong black culture, some southern accents, cookie cutter housing, etc.). Same with Maryland. Of course the people of DE will be similar to people in PA and NJ. It borders both states. A transition line from one region to another doesn't mean that as soon as you cross the line, the people are going to be drastically different.
A small part of Delaware is north of the Mason-Dixon Line. ALL of the state is EAST of the Mason-Dixon Line. Mason
But I'd say the fact that there are so many more transplants from the north makes DC a transient, northern city, just like Massachusetts had a very "English" culture when colonists arrived (more so than when there were only Native Americans here).
There aren't more transplants from the North. I'm not exactly sure how many times this needs to be repeated. Here is the breakdown of domestic migration to the DC area for the stubborn people who refuse to accept reality.
38.1% from the South
23.0% from the Northeast
16.3% from the West
11.4% from Maryland (outside the DC metro)
11.3% from the Midwest
Even if you added the Northeast and the Midwest together as the "North," it would still be smaller than the number of people from the South. And that's been the trend in domestic migration to the DC area since 1985.
The comparison to colonial Massachusetts is not a good one, imo, since most of the original 13 colonies started out with mostly people of English descent. To ignore the 238 years between now and then, and all the events that transpired during that time, doesn't make any sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisvishr0
We're in the South, but we're a Northeastern area. People make a city/state. There's a huge quantity of northerners in MD, so we're culturally northern (even if we're not supposed to be, and even if that population is constantly ebbing and flowing, and transient). That's how I've felt, but all of your points make sense. You might just convince me yet...
I agree. And if most domestic migrants come from the South, then what does that make DC?
With regard to DC proper, I don't see how white transplants determine the "culture" of the city since they don't even make up anything close to a majority of the city. To reach that conclusion, you pretty much have to say that the 319,992 African Americans in the city "don't count." Or maybe say that the "culture" of non-Hispanic White Washingtonians matters more than that of Black Washingtonians. Is that a road you really want to go down? Once you get into the business of excluding vast segments of the population to make a point, you really don't have an argument at all. You don't see people saying, "Yeah, New York is a northern city except for the Blacks up in Harlem, the Puerto Ricans, the Chinese, the Hasidic Jews, etc." They're all New Yorkers. You can't select a segment of the population and then ignore everyone else. It's all or nothing.
All I have to say is that you don't hear people from states like Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, and Virginia(outside the DC metro area) wanting to be included as being part of the Northeast and being ashamed to be associated with the South.
If you ask me, Maryland was never truly a Southern state like the others. It has been historically a border state but now it clearly leans more Northern today than anything else.
I think that's as close as we're ever going to get to the truth. After living in Maryland for several years, coming from an indisputable Northeastern state (PA), I still can't quite put my finger on this place. It is indeed a varied state with many different vibes throughout, which I've chalked up to exactly what you've said -- historically being a border state (with the northern portion definitely being Northern, and the southern part seeming much more Southern) that now has a critical mass of native Northeasterners.
BajanYankee touches on a good point. Northern does not equal Northeastern. I lived in the DC area, and honestly the suburbs felt like they could have been just about anywhere which lacked a real strong regional identity. They didn't really feel like "Northeastern" suburbs in the slightest. Hell, the Miami metro has more of a Northeastern vibe by far than DC, with all the Jewish retirees down there and the like.
I do think Baltimore has a somewhat Northeastern feel though - it's a true border city. DC is just becoming Anywhereville USA.
And the only time I've ever seen people vehemently asserting that MD and DE are not the northeast is here on City Data. It seems that you along with the dollar sign MK guy (#mk3895 or whatever) and BajanYankee and nep321 make appearances on every thread to tell everyone that Maryland is in fact the south. Its honestly the same handful of people who take this stance on every north/south thread.
Yes, and this is where hobbesdj interjects, the prolific CD poster who at last intervenes to bring some semblance of objectivity and rationality to this discussion.
I've said multiple times in many threads that the DC area does not feel very southern anymore, but at the same time, does not feel like Philadelphia, New York or Boston. It's a pretty straightforward claim. The DC area is more or less a hodgepodge of different people from across the country with a native Black population that leans southern. Baltimore is more of a true border city than DC and truly shares characteristics of the North and South. But as we've seen from the Baltimore forum, most Baltimoreans don't place it in the Northeast.
The DC suburbs are far too transient to be categorized as southern, northern, western, midwestern or anything else. Only 31% of non-Hispanic Whites in the DC area were born in their state of residence. In New York, that figure is 66%. In Philadelphia, it's 68%. In Chicago, it's 70%. Only Miami is lower than DC (29%). In DC proper, only 12% of Whites were born in the District compared to nearly 70% of Blacks. Based on those stats, it becomes quite clear why people often think of DC as not having "character" compared to cities like Boston. The whites have been too transient and varied for there to be any type of cohesive identity, little less a regional identity. The city does have character, however, but it's not the type of "character" you guys like.
I think that's as close as we're ever going to get to the truth. After living in Maryland for several years, coming from an indisputable Northeastern state (PA), I still can't quite put my finger on this place. It is indeed a varied state with many different vibes throughout, which I've chalked up to exactly what you've said -- historically being a border state (with the northern portion definitely being Northern, and the southern part seeming much more Southern) that now has a critical mass of native Northeasterners.
In a "historical sense," it was certainly southern. In 1860, the state voted for Breckenridge, the secession candidate, as it was a large slave-holding state. In 1939, the state legislature adopted "Maryland, My Maryland" as the state song which exhorts Marylanders to "spurn the Northern scum." Shortly thereafter, the state became an inaugural member of the Southern Legislative Council and then later a member of the Southern Governors Association (where it remains today). And its public schools weren't desegregated until Brown in 1954. Even after that decision, there were many sit ins and civil rights protests throughout the 60s because Blacks weren't allowed to dine in "Whites Only" establishments. So yes, it was clearly southern...just without all of the ridiculous racial violence that was seen in places farther South.
Here is a Baltimore Sun article on the Civil Rights Movement in Baltimore.
Quote:
Manuel Deese was then an 18-year-old freshman at what was then Morgan State Teachers College. He was from Pittsburgh and was black. In Pennsylvania, he could try on clothes and shoes in department stores. He could be served at their restaurants. He came to Baltimore to study political science and found what conditions were like below the Mason-Dixon line.
"I went downtown one day and went into a White Tower and tried to order a hamburger," he said. "The manager came over and said, 'Here is your bag and get out.' It was so stupid."
Last edited by BajanYankee; 07-30-2014 at 09:25 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
