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I understand what you're saying. I just disagree that wealth in that sense is a defining northeastern quality.
There are probably no pockets of wealth similar below DC that would continue the line for DC because there is a lack of large metros until you hit NC. I personally would say that you don't hit a large metro in the south similar to Philly, Boston, NYC, and DC until Atlanta.
Atlanta is more than 600 miles from Washington DC and it is not close to the same level of wealth.
Overall, you present the most compelling case for excluding MD, DE, DC from the NE that I've seen. Still, the only significant fact that you've presented that ties MD et al to the South and significantly differentiates them from the Northern states is the history of slavery (and the resultant high percentage of African-American residents). In every other case where you've presented differences between MD/DE and the Northeastern, the same arguments could just as easily be flipped on their heads to show the (even larger) differences between MD/DE and the South. As I posted above, even in the realm of slavery MD (and especially DE) were different from other slave states.
You're doing a fairly decent job of putting distance between Maryland and southern states, but not such a great job of affirmatively putting it into the "Northeast." The flipside of the bolded language is to focus on the differences between Maryland and the Northeastern states.
I suppose if I didn't live in New York, and I was originally from Louisiana or somewhere, I might agree with you. But to me, the differences between Maryland and New Jersey are just as striking as the differences between Maryland and Virginia. And the demographic data I posted goes a long way in highlighting those differences.
The New York area is very Italian. It's very Irish. Puerto Ricans are the dominant Hispanic culture and their presence is beyond noticeable. Philadelphia and Boston are very similar in this regard though the Jewish influence isn't as strong in those cities as it is here. Nonetheless, the entire stretch along I-95 from Northern Delaware to Southern New England is the Cannoli/Pizza/Italian ice/Bagel/Bodega capital of the U.S.
I don't feel any of that in Maryland. Baltimore has an ethnic "twist" but it's just that...a twist. It's not palpable the way it is in Boston, Philly or NYC. You're not going to drive anywhere in the state and find tons of little "towns" with the pizzeria that's been around for decades. Or a multitude of suburbs that have more Catholics/Jews than Protestants. And Puerto Ricans and Boricuan culture are virtually non-existent in the state. Moreover, the African American population in Baltimore (which comprises about 64% of the city) is different from those of Northeastern cities.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 08-21-2014 at 09:35 AM..
Moreover, the African American population in Baltimore (which comprises about 64% of the city) is different from those of Northeastern cities.
I forgot that I started a thread about this in the Philly forum a while back.
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There are certainly people from the Baby Boomer generation who moved up here from the South a generation or two ago that carry their traditions with them. But other than family connections and some possible crossover in Southern/soul food, I think Blacks in Philly will be as different as Blacks in the South, Midwest, and West Coast. I *do* see some Southern qualities in DC as well as Baltimore, though.
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Besides some of the things mentioned in that article, and even more availability of some traditional Southern brands, it's just a generally more easygoing attitude compared to the "attytood" along the Philadelphia/New York axis.
I wouldn't say "attytood" applies to just the Black community though. You even get that from the Asians here.
I was at a restaurant in Brooklyn and an older Asian guy was sitting at the table next to us. He had a noticeable NYC accent. Not typical, but a strange combination.
The black population in DC/suburbs talked differently than NYC area blacks, with DC area blacks having a noticeable southern sound to them.
A southern accent also appears in the Baltimore accent of the White population.
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Baltimore's dialect shares many characteristic pronunciations and words with its northern neighor Philadlephia. One of these is the long o in words like home, which is very fronted, pronounced something like eh-oo. Otherwise, as we might expect, Baltimore's speech shows a distinctly southern character.
Still, the only significant fact that you've presented that ties MD et al to the South and significantly differentiates them from the Northern states is the history of slavery (and the resultant high percentage of African-American residents). In every other case where you've presented differences between MD/DE and the Northeastern, the same arguments could just as easily be flipped on their heads to show the (even larger) differences between MD/DE and the South. As I posted above, even in the realm of slavery MD (and especially DE) were different from other slave states.
While I don't believe Maryland or Delaware can truly be called "yankee" states, (I've actually been called that in NC once and was a little taken aback) I still firmly believe they share a lot more in common with the NE than the Southeast today. Obviously there are some differences between it and the rest of the Northeast (which isn't homogenous at all) that become more obvious as you get further north to New England, but the differences between MD and even VA and NC, much less states like GA, TX, and AL, are far more glaring. Personally, I refer to Maryland as "Mid-Atlantic" most often (along with NJ, DE, PA, and DC).
I couldn't agree more. Especially the part about arguments being able to be flipped over. I agree about the history of the black populatino in Maryland.
But why does Maryland match the northeast instead of the southeast in terms of religion?
Why does Maryland align with the Northeast politically? Why is it one of the most democratic blue states in the entire country (like most of the northeast), instead of incredibly red (like the south)?
Last Few Elections
Why is the ancestry of the BULK of Marylanders (note I said Bulk, not tiny minority populations like Puerto Ricans) shared with Pennsylvania and upstate NY instead of Virginia and NC?
Why isn't Maryland considered southern by Southerners? "Also, Maryland — well and truly — is not a Southern state, according to actual Southerners. It pulled a pathetic 6 percent of the vote. That’s worse than Arizona and New Mexico".
Why is that in Dr. Shelton Reed's UNC Focus Study (A study that BajanYankee has cited many times earlier), a minority of Marylanders identified as southern, while 80+ percent from southern states claim they are?
"Strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia don’t belong anymore, if they ever did".
"Notice the somewhat fortuitous "break point" between the non-Southern state with the most minority support (45%) [West Virginia] for southern status and the Southern state with the lowest majority support (69%) for southern status."
So IMHO the wikipedia map of the northeast does the most justice. Is MD or DE the northeast like Massachussetts or New Hampshire? No. But most people consider it the northeast, for better or worse. There is far too much it has in common with the northeast, and far too little in common with states like NC. If we want to stick to abstract historical arguments, or use the census bureau as a bible on the matter, than we can say that these states are southern or not part of the northeast. But if we are talking about an intelligent assessment of these state's culture, politics, and economy, then yes, they are without a doubt the southernmost part of the northeast. BajanYankee makes good arguments about the black population having more southern influence (I was in Philly last weekend and personally I dont see a difference in black accents until NYC/North Jersey), but when we look at these entire states overall they are quite northeastern. MD/DE are the southernmost parts of the north, and Virginia is the northernmost part of the south.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
The flipside of the bolded language is to focus on the differences between Maryland and the Northeastern states.
You have done an excellent job highlighting what seems to be every conceivable difference between MD (and DE) and the rest of the northeast, but it still just doesn't stack up. You make some good historical points, and points about Latinos and other minority groups. These populations may be defining features of NYC or other major metros, but the bulk of the population is white or even black Americans and not particularly affected by immigrant groups who tend to form their own enclaves. When we look at the big picture - whole population - MD and DE are definitely northeastern. Northeastern like Worcester, MA? No, but closer to Pennsylvania and South Jersey than Virginia and NC. I mean, it's not even really close.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I suppose if I didn't live in New York, and I was originally from Louisiana or somewhere, I might agree with you. But to me, the differences between Maryland and New Jersey are just as striking as the differences between Maryland and Virginia. And the demographic data I posted goes a long way in highlighting those differences.
North Jersey - the NYC metro area? Sure. I am more skeptical about South Jersey compared to MD. Even more so, what about Pennsylvania? Pennsylvania is very different from the rest of the Northeast, but it is certainly northeastern. The reality is that most of MD has more in common with these places than Virginia outside of NOVA. Many of the differences you highlight in the northeast leave large parts of it as outliers - Maine, Pennsylvania, Vermont, upstate NY. You have decent arguments for NYC and Boston but these areas are not the whole northeast. South Jersey and PA are the northeast, and so are Rochester and Burlington.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
The New York area is very Italian. It's very Irish. Puerto Ricans are the dominant Hispanic culture and their presence is beyond noticeable. Philadelphia and Boston are very similar in this regard though the Jewish influence isn't as strong in those cities as it is here. Nonetheless, the entire stretch along I-95 from Northern Delaware to Southern New England is the Cannoli/Pizza/Italian ice/Bagel/Bodega capital of the U.S.
Sure. But is York, PA very Italian or Irish? No. Less though than many places in Maryland I would wager. But that doesn't make it the south. What about Vermont and Maine? They have French Canadian minorities but New Jersey doesn't - does this exclude New Jersey from being the "true" northeast? I would say no. These minority groups are unique and help define different areas within the northeast, but it isn't as if they are universally present in any significance in northeastern towns and it isn't as if they are evenly distributed. For example, there just aren't that many Puerto Ricans in New Hampshire, but this doesn't make New Hampshire less northeastern than Philadelphia.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I don't feel any of that in Maryland. Baltimore has an ethnic "twist" but it's just that...a twist. It's not palpable the way it is in Boston, Philly or NYC. You're not going to drive anywhere in the state and find tons of little "towns" with the pizzeria that's been around for decades. Or a multitude of suburbs that have more Catholics/Jews than Protestants. And Puerto Ricans and Boricuan culture are virtually non-existent in the state. Moreover, the African American population in Baltimore (which comprises about 64% of the city) is different from those of Northeastern cities.
Good individual points, but as a whole they don't stack up. Like cpterp says, we can flip this around. According to Wiki the Buffalo metro areas is 3% Hispanic - but where I am now is much more Hispanic than that. Virginia has a huge hispanic population for the east coast, but that doesn't change all of the other more important factors that put it in the south. Either way, the percentage of hispanics is a fact worth presenting, but it isn't anything close to a debate changing statistic. I feel like you are throwing lots and lots of pebbles (the only rock would be the historical facts pre-1860 and the black population) while I am presenting you with with game-changing evidence. The game changing evidence is that Maryland lines up beautifully with the northeast when it comes to these factors:
a) religion
b) linguistics
c) politics
d) ancestry (half a point here)
e) economics
These criteria are absolutely crucial because they are the defining factors for a region's culture. Is Maryland/DE going to be a carbon copy of New Jersey? Of course not! But in all of these categories these places fall easily within the northeast, rather than the southeast. There is simply no way anyone could argue that Maryland has more in common with the southeast than the northeast when it comes to these critical factors.
The weakest link would be ancestry - as you have pointed out many times - where Maryland has a large native black population which is a trait more similar to VA. Also a difference would be the fact that there has been heavier migration of certain groups major cities like NYC that hasn't occurred in a significant way in Baltimore.
But do these facts outweigh religion, linguistics, politics, economics, and the ancestry of MOST people (German like PA)? No, they don't. In fact, we can flip the ancestry arguments you put forward on their head and argue that much of the northeast simply doesn't see much in the way of Latinos or Italians, and other groups outside of major metros areas. I know that where I am resembles a Connecticut suburb, but it is true I can't say Baltimore resembles NYC demographically.
As it does in Pennsylvania - especially the Philadelphia area and places like Ohio, Illinois, Iowa. In fact there are recent articles featuring linguistics expert William Labov discussing the change of the Philly accent. It is undeniable that the Philly and Baltimore accents are part and parcel. It is not a southern accent - according to professional linguistics - but an accent unique to MD/PA/DE/NJ that carries southern influence. I was in the middle of the Pacific Ocean last year and heard a woman talking - and I KNEW she was from MD or PA. I didn't know which one because the accent is practically the same. I was right - she was from Pennsylvania. I couldn't tell if she was from Towson or Lancaster, but I KNEW it was that region. There was no part of me that though "she might be from Virginia" because the native accent of our region is extremely unique.
Like the Baltimore accent, the Philly accent is changing to sound more like the so called real northeast.
Also, this is another thing that makes PA and South Jersey VERY different from the rest of the northeast. The accent is VERY different from the NY or Boston accent. In Philadelphia and Baltimore the accent is made by forming the lips around your teeth and pronouncing funny O's and wooder and eaushyun.
Nothing like a guy from Boston or New York, but that doesn't make Philadelphia or Baltimore the south. The accent is part of the lower northeast.
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