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Old 07-24-2014, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Auburn, New York
1,775 posts, read 2,510,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago60614 View Post
?? Single family homes are 25% of Chicago's housing stock. There are many areas in the bungalow belt that are nice wakable neighborhoods with good transit access.

Are you arguing Minneapolis is more walkable just because the city limits are so much smaller and it has a core more tight arond the downtown area than Chicago? Even then, there's nothing more walkable about Minneapolis' single family homes area than Chicago. Single family homes are roughly half of the units in Minneapolis. Chicago's vast multi-unit neighborhoods, which are 75% of all housing, are much more expansive and walkable than almost anywhere in Minneapolis outside a few core sections. Or do you just mean in general Minneapolis is more walkable because it doesn't have the vast areas of vacant land and industrial areas like Chicago? People don't have any reason to walk through those, just the commercial and residential areas.
You claim that only 25% of Chicago housing stock is single family homes. Though that sounds rather low, it's only potentially the case because the neighborhoods near the lake are just so dense. Go west of Ashland or south of Cermak (with the exception of Hyde Park, Logan Square, and Wicker Park) and the city is almost entirely singly-family homes. The vast majority of the city by area is low-density and suburban.

Most of Chicago's Southside and Westside is consider a food desert. In these parts of town there are no places to by groceries in walking distance. It's nothing but residential with the corner store, church, or fast food restaurant. Good luck being able to walk to pharmacy, a beauty salon, a doctor's office, or a place to get a hot cup of coffee in West Garfield Park, Chatham, or South Lawndale.

Whereas in Minneapolis, only the (wealthy) Bryn Mawr district, the extreme northern fringe on Northeast, and the area around Minnehaha Park is considered a food desert. Even in very residential areas like Northeast, Longfellow, Powederhorn Park, or Lake Nokomis, you'll find commercial zones with coffee shops, florists, medical offices, banks, etcetera.

Don't even bring up transit. Folks in Chicago have been complaining that the Southside is not served nearly as extensively or as frequently by the CTA compared to the richer, whiter neighborhoods on the Northside. Good look getting from South Shore to Austin or from Beverly to Jefferson Park without a car. I just checked the CTA's website, and the trip would take well over two hours. Yet working-class Chicagoans make that trek everyday.

Last edited by Dawn.Davenport; 07-24-2014 at 04:18 PM..
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:47 PM
 
5,611 posts, read 6,085,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn.Davenport View Post
You claim that only 25% of Chicago housing stock is single family homes. Though that sounds rather low, it's only potentially the case because the neighborhoods near the lake are just so dense. Go west of Ashland or south of Cermak (with the exception of Hyde Park, Logan Square, and Wicker Park) and the city is almost entirely singly-family homes. The vast majority of the city by area is low-density and suburban.

Most of Chicago's Southside and Westside is consider a food desert. In these parts of town there are no places to by groceries in walking distance. It's nothing but residential with the corner store, church, or fast food restaurant. Good luck being able to walk to pharmacy, a beauty salon, a doctor's office, or a place to get a hot cup of coffee in West Garfield Park, Chatham, or South Lawndale.

Whereas in Minneapolis, only the (wealthy) Bryn Mawr district, the extreme northern fringe on Northeast, and the area around Minnehaha Park is considered a food desert. Even in very residential areas like Northeast, Longfellow, Powederhorn Park, or Lake Nokomis, you'll find commercial zones with coffee shops, florists, medical offices, banks, etcetera.

Don't even bring up transit. Folks in Chicago have been complaining that the Southside is not served nearly as extensively or as frequently by the CTA compared to the richer, whiter neighborhoods on the Northside. Good look getting from South Shore to Austin or from Beverly to Jefferson Park without a car. I just checked the CTA's website, and the trip would take well over two hours. Yet working-class Chicagoans make that trek everyday.
Actually I have a friend who makes the commute from Southshore to Austin in about an hour. Jeffery jump to the blueline to be specific.

I would agree not all of Chicago is walkable. Many who live on the north side forget the south and west sides actually exist.

Unfortunately Chicago gets very expensive living in walkable neighborhoods. I wish they could create a development plan that would give everyone the opportunity to the same quality of urban experience. That may take a bite out of real estate values of trendier neighborhoods but could provide opportunity for those who live in those communities.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
2,331 posts, read 3,052,638 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn.Davenport View Post
You claim that only 25% of Chicago housing stock is single family homes. Though that sounds rather low, it's only potentially the case because the neighborhoods near the lake are just so dense. Go west of Ashland or south of Cermak (with the exception of Hyde Park, Logan Square, and Wicker Park) and the city is almost entirely singly-family homes. The vast majority of the city by area is low-density and suburban.
That number actually comes from the American Community Survey done annually by the Census Bureau so it is probably accurate. Here are some expanded numbers for select Midwestern cities. Chicago has the lowest percentage of single family houses, Minneapolis has the highest percentage of large apartment buildings (which surprises me):

CHICAGO:
1-unit, detached - 309,210 - 25.8%
1-unit, attached - 43,146 - 3.6%
2 units - 184,587 - 15.4%
3 or 4 units - 195,729 - 16.3%
5 to 9 units - 127,647 - 10.7%
10 to 19 units - 54,224 - 4.5%
20 or more units - 281,031 - 23.5%


CINCINNATI:
1-unit, detached - 63,521 - 37.8%
1-unit, attached - 7,980 - 4.8%
2 units - 16,978 - 10.1%
3 or 4 units - 20,757 - 12.4%
5 to 9 units - 16,774 - 10.0%
10 to 19 units - 18,549 - 11.0%
20 or more units - 22,923 - 13.7%


MILWAUKEE:
1-unit, detached - 104,629 - 40.3%
1-unit, attached - 15,269 - 5.9%
2 units - 56,131 - 21.6%
3 or 4 units - 20,197 - 7.8%
5 to 9 units - 14,760 - 5.7%
10 to 19 units - 10,066 - 3.9%
20 or more units - 37,214 - 14.3%


ST. LOUIS:
1-unit, detached - 74,862 - 42.5%
1-unit, attached - 7,186 - 4.1%
2 units - 28,116 - 16.0%
3 or 4 units - 25,001 - 14.2%
5 to 9 units - 10,427 - 5.9%
10 to 19 units - 5,151 - 2.9%
20 or more units - 24,847 - 14.1%


MINNEAPOLIS:
1-unit, detached - 81,915 - 44.4%
1-unit, attached - 7,814 - 4.2%
2 units - 17,196 - 9.3%
3 or 4 units - 8,075 - 4.4%
5 to 9 units - 6,657 - 3.6%
10 to 19 units - 14,652 - 7.9%
20 or more units - 47,638 - 25.8%


COLUMBUS:
1-unit, detached - 172,476 - 46.4%
1-unit, attached4 - 1,644 - 11.2%
2 units - 13,485 - 3.6%
3 or 4 units - 35,889 - 9.7%
5 to 9 units - 42,099 - 11.3%
10 to 19 units - 29,862 - 8.0%
20 or more units - 33,174 - 8.9%


CLEVELAND:
1-unit, detached - 102,731 - 47.4%
1-unit, attached - 14,159 - 6.5%
2 units - 42,584 - 19.6%
3 or 4 units - 14,453 - 6.7%
5 to 9 units - 9,354 - 4.3%
10 to 19 units - 8,673 - 4.0%
20 or more units - 23,366 - 10.8%


INDIANAPOLIS:
1-unit, detached - 225,342 - 59.3%
1-unit, attached - 28,674 -3 7.5%
2 units - 9,721 - 2.6%
3 or 4 units - 22,316 - 5.9%
5 to 9 units - 33,913 - 8.9%
10 to 19 units - 27,566 - 7.2%
20 or more units - 27,973 - 7.4%


KANSAS CITY:
1-unit, detached - 140,310 - 62.5%
1-unit, attached - 13,245 - 5.9%
2 units - 6,026 - 2.7%
3 or 4 units - 10,684 - 4.8%
5 to 9 units - 15,280 - 6.8%
10 to 19 units - 14,676 - 6.5%
20 or more units - 22,187 - 9.9%


DETROIT:
1-unit, detached - 238,007 - 65.5%
1-unit, attached - 24,757 - 6.8%
2 units - 31,414 - 8.6%
3 or 4 units - 9,483 - 2.6%
5 to 9 units - 8,123 - 2.2%
10 to 19 units - 10,871 - 3.0%
20 or more units - 39,255 - 10.8%
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Old 07-24-2014, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
1,704 posts, read 2,761,283 times
Reputation: 2335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverfield View Post
The list he made is skewed because he averaged only the walk scores for the 10 most walkable neighborhoods, not the city as a whole. Cleveland ranks a lot better when looking at the city as a whole.
Wishful thinking. Cleveland and Minneapolis have effectively the same city population, and Walkscore lists 28 Cleveland neighborhoods with scores over fifty, compared to 67 Minneapolis neighborhoods (plus another 12 in St. Paul). Don't just say Cleveland ranks "a lot better" if you have no way of objectively backing it up.

The reason I only used the 10 highest-scored neighborhoods is that it puts all the cities on the same playing field. Instead of making a city like Kansas City, whose limits stretch all the way up into the exurbs of the metro area, compete with a city like St. Louis, whose limits hardly leave downtown, it compares core to core.


I want to be clear that I realize Walkscore is flawed and should only be used for fun! I wasn't trying to make any kind of scientific statement, it was just another way to approach the question!
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Old 07-25-2014, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Cleveland
3,178 posts, read 3,845,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steel03 View Post
Wishful thinking. Cleveland and Minneapolis have effectively the same city population, and Walkscore lists 28 Cleveland neighborhoods with scores over fifty, compared to 67 Minneapolis neighborhoods (plus another 12 in St. Paul). Don't just say Cleveland ranks "a lot better" if you have no way of objectively backing it up.

The reason I only used the 10 highest-scored neighborhoods is that it puts all the cities on the same playing field. Instead of making a city like Kansas City, whose limits stretch all the way up into the exurbs of the metro area, compete with a city like St. Louis, whose limits hardly leave downtown, it compares core to core.


I want to be clear that I realize Walkscore is flawed and should only be used for fun! I wasn't trying to make any kind of scientific statement, it was just another way to approach the question!
By using only the top 10, all you're saying is that this city's most walkable neighborhoods are really walkable, while this city's most walkable neighborhoods are only pretty walkable. It really doesn't tell you anything about the city's overall walkability in terms of quantity, rather just the quality of the top neighborhoods. I understand what you're saying about the difficulty of varying city sizes, but your list doesn't really do a good job of representing which cities are really walkable. Maybe it would be better if you listed the overall number of neighborhoods that score over 50 in each city, rather than just the average scores of the top ranking neighborhoods.

Also, I never said Cleveland ranks above Minneapolis. I was just saying that when you look at the city overall, it compares more favorably to the other midwest cities than your list would suggest. I was basing this off of the original walkscore.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:04 AM
 
3,008 posts, read 4,325,968 times
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Walkscore can be misleading, all depends on classification. Can only speak for 2 cities in depth and Chicago is self explanatory. Indy on the otherhand, 360 sq mile cities will have large swaths of open land and areas with a rural designation but it does have its walkable hoods outside of the downtown neighborhoods (fountain square, Butler Tarkington, meridian Kessler, Wanamaker, woodruff, herron-morton,etc). Gets more than a bad wrap because well average CD Indy poster lives in the donut counties and basically drive into work or just go downtown and bounce after that.

One place that is really starting to emerge is Gary's miller beach. Been years since I had been there but its all grass roots, local community rolling up their sleeves since the city can't help with anything. Chicagoans should take a day trip and check it out. Still a ways to go but one wiuld be impressed with the transformation.
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Old 07-26-2014, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis
1,704 posts, read 2,761,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleverfield View Post
By using only the top 10, all you're saying is that this city's most walkable neighborhoods are really walkable, while this city's most walkable neighborhoods are only pretty walkable. It really doesn't tell you anything about the city's overall walkability in terms of quantity, rather just the quality of the top neighborhoods. I understand what you're saying about the difficulty of varying city sizes, but your list doesn't really do a good job of representing which cities are really walkable. Maybe it would be better if you listed the overall number of neighborhoods that score over 50 in each city, rather than just the average scores of the top ranking neighborhoods.

Also, I never said Cleveland ranks above Minneapolis. I was just saying that when you look at the city overall, it compares more favorably to the other midwest cities than your list would suggest. I was basing this off of the original walkscore.
The list I made does a very good job of representing a specific thing (Walkscore-based rankings of the walkability of urban cores in the Midwest) based on an extremely imperfect metric. The point my list makes is not that Cleveland is less walkable than Grand Rapids; the point was that Cleveland's urban core is, based on the unavoidably flawed information we have, less walkable than the urban core of Grand Rapids.

If you wanted to quantify the walkability of an entire city using Walkscore data, you would have to literally go in and drop a pin every five blocks or so to find out the score for that radius. Which as far as I know is not so different from what Walkscore probably does already, and that's one of the things that makes its full-city rankings so unreliable. Every city has such a wide range of neighborhoods from vibrant and urban to sprawly and suburban that trying to represent the whole area with one number doesn't make any sense at all. Cleveland's score of 57 is a disservice to its downtown and too generous to the neighborhoods that don't even score 40. That was the entire point of using only the most walkable parts of each city.

If you want to make another list, go ahead, you're more than welcome. You're well within your rights.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Cleveland
3,178 posts, read 3,845,228 times
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Here's a study that ranks the country's 30 largest metro's in terms of walkability. The study's methodology used a combination of walkscore heat maps, satellite imagery, submarket definitions, business improvement district boundaries, and neighborhood boundaries to determine each city's walkability. The rankings for midwest cities were:

High walkable urbanism
5. Chicago

Moderate walkable urbanism
10. Cleveland
12. Minneapolis
14. Denver

Tentative walkable urbanism
16. Columbus
17. Kansas City
19. St. Louis
20. Cincinnati

Low walkable urbanism
22. Detroit


The study can be found here: http://www.smartgrowthamerica.org/do...ffic-ahead.pdf
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Old 08-05-2014, 09:05 AM
 
Location: East Coast
678 posts, read 691,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
While this doesn't measure walkability exactly, here are the densities of 14 core major Midwestern cities if they are measured by the same area size.

78.54 Square Miles (Using a 5 mile radius around the core)
1. Chicago: 13,591.0
2. Minneapolis: 7,455.9
3. Milwaukee: 7,029.1
4. Columbus: 5,152.1
5. Cincinnati: 5,096.2
6. Cleveland: 4,602.4
7. St. Louis: 4,285.4
8. Indianapolis: 4,086.1
9. Omaha: 3,962.2
10. Grand Rapids: 3,887.3
11. Akron: 3,778.8
12. Detroit: 3,603.1
13. Toledo: 3,452.9
14. Dayton: 3,336.8

Take it for what you will, but there is usually some level of correlation between density and walkability.

Interesting that the top 4 are the same as the top 4 in the Walk Score list!
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Old 08-05-2014, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Maryland
4,268 posts, read 5,473,848 times
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My impression is that the largest walkable cities in the Midwest are:

Chicago
.
.
.
Minneapolis/Milwaukee/Cleveland
.
St. Louis/Cincinnati/Columbus

The more walkable smaller cities are going to be the college towns, largely: Madison, Evanston, Ann Arbor, Champaign/Urbana, Iowa City, etc.
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