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View Poll Results: What region has the best climate?
West 90 54.88%
Midwest 28 17.07%
South 24 14.63%
Northeast 22 13.41%
Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-22-2014, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theraven24 View Post
Californians have no problem with playing/swimming in the CA beaches. The outsiders are babies.
Neither do people from Great Lakes states. I've jumped into the Pacific several times during the winter, but then again, I swim in Lake Michigan 5 months of the year and have spent time swimming in Lake Superior, which many people on C-D have told me was "impossible." I like cool water on a warm day. A hot pool or body of water during 95 degrees is gross to me. San Diego has perfect weather for those who are looking to avoid extremes. I personally like seasons, but I can fully understand the appeal of it.
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Old 08-22-2014, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
The person you are referring to has some weird agenda to prove the US South is a subtropical paradise. In reality, the US South has the worst and most marginal subtropical climate on the planet, except maybe parts of East Asia (but even there they don't get the extreme cold freezes).

As an example, Mobile, AL has got down to 3F at latitude 30N. Pretty much no where in the Mediterranean, Australia, South America, South Africa, etc, etc. or any other area of every other subtropical climate on earth has ever reached such low temps. And that was in 1985. The reality of winter in the US South, outside deep S. Florida, is back and forth cold and warm all winter long, with no stability in temps. One day 40 and rain, the next day 70F, and the next night 18F. Happens all the time there. And the reason is simply, Canada.

We have a huge frigid landmass to our north, with nothing at all to block the cold air. Every other place on earth either has east-west mountains, large seas or oceans to mitigate and modify polar air. We don't have it. This is the reason south Florida is jam packed with people in winter, and is so over developed. The US has no where else to go to have nice warm winter weather. Brownsville, TX way way down by Mexico has reached 12F. Incredible given the almost tropical 25F latitude. There is no where else on earth at that latitude and at sea level that has reached such a low temp.
Yeah, that always amazes me that it can get so cold so far south. Brownsville is closer to the Tropic of Cancer than it is to San Antonio! I lived in San Antonio for a couple years and I remember an ice storm where it got down into the teens and many of the few palm trees were killed. And some of the palms that were killed were fairly old, hardy varieties. Vegetation wise, San Antonio isn't much different than Dallas, oddly.

I've also wondered what the U.S. South would look like if the Rockies extended out across maybe Nebraska over to Illinois, creating a high altitude barrier for Arctic air. Of if we could just remove the northern 2/3 of Canada and leave it as ocean. Then there might be Coconut palms in Houston.
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
Yeah, that always amazes me that it can get so cold so far south. Brownsville is closer to the Tropic of Cancer than it is to San Antonio! I lived in San Antonio for a couple years and I remember an ice storm where it got down into the teens and many of the few palm trees were killed. And some of the palms that were killed were fairly old, hardy varieties. Vegetation wise, San Antonio isn't much different than Dallas, oddly.

I've also wondered what the U.S. South would look like if the Rockies extended out across maybe Nebraska over to Illinois, creating a high altitude barrier for Arctic air. Of if we could just remove the northern 2/3 of Canada and leave it as ocean. Then there might be Coconut palms in Houston.

What is even more interesting to me is that China has way more land to the west and north of it reaching up into lands much colder than Canada (Siberia). But in winter, every year like clockwork a huge, extremly powerful high pressure area forms called the Siberian High. That high creates cold average temps all the way down into places like Shanghai China (latitude of Savannah) where the Jan avg high/low temp is 47/36F, vs 60/40F for Savannah. The big diference though is that Savannah can and will get down into the teens almost every year, and in 1985 went down to 3F and killed just about every palm tree but those ugly cold hardy sabal palmettos. The average temps in the US South are very deceiving, cause even though Savannah has an avg high of 60F and low of 40F in Jan, it rarely gets stable temps like that. It just fluctuates all over the place from 40f to 70F. Same with the nights. Savannah goes below freezing around 25-30 nights each winter. Another thing is the South looks very, very dead in winter, with almost no green vegetation. I've driven down I-95 and the grass is brown and dead trees all the way thru Geogia. Even here with our cool weather grasses we have greenish winter grass.


Meanwhile, oranges are grown commercially outside Shanghai, and the record low in Shanghai is 14F, but the lowest reached each winter barely goes below 25F, while Savannah goes down into the upper teens. That is make or break for commercial citrus.

That huge Siberian High is so powerful it blocks any extreme low pressure systems coming along and sucking down the polar vortex into China, unlike happens here every so many years.

When it comes to subtropical climates, the US got the worst of the worst. The summers in the South are unbearably hot and humid, and the winters go from teens F one day to ice the next to 70F the next. That will kill just about all subtropical palm trees except the ugly palmetto. This is why Barcelona, Spain has huge Canary Island Date Palms decades old, and in Savannah you can't find one.
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:57 PM
 
Location: A subtropical paradise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
I've seen the one Coconut palm in Newport Beach. I wish they'd grow will in southern California, but luckily, there are so many other palms that grow there. I always thought the King Palm was about the closest to looking like a Coconut And I prefer the drier, cooler summers in SoCal over the steambath of the gulf and Florida. Yuk!
Yep, SoCal has much of this country beat when it comes to the variety of tender plants that can be grown. In addition to Kings, you got Queens, Foxtails, Royals, Dates, Washingtonias, etc. And other than palms, in SoCal, you can grow other tender trees like the Jacaranda and Royal Poinciana. Other than Coastal California, such plants can be seen in lowland Arizona, and the Coastal South.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
I'd say False on S. Padre Island. I just did a little research and googlemapping. Just cruising around S. Padre Island, I didn't see a single Coconut palm. I did find one on some gardening website at about this address: 106-108 E. Red Snapper St., SPI,TX, 78597 (if you care to googlemap it) and there is indeed a Coconut palm there. It looks rather sickly in the 2011 view. When I went back to the 2007 view, it looked pretty good, but was obviously recovering from a freeze by 2011. After last winter, I'd bet it suffered more damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
Like I said, YnOh... you can plant a coconut palm in S. Padre, and it might live for a couple of years, but eventually one of those "Blue Northers" is going to blast it's way down there and severely maim it, if not just kill it altogether. The idea that the beaches of South Texas are lined with tall, healthy, fruit-bearing coconut palms sounds more like a pipe-dream to me. There are plenty of other kinds of Palm trees that do well all along the Gulf coast, but coconut palms are not one of them.
First things first, I think it is important to make the distinction of where coconut palms can grow wild and free with no problem, and where coconuts can grow provided that they are cared for. In the first scenario, obviously, only South Florida, and the Keys would fit the description, given the tropical climate, seeing that the beaches are profusely lined with coconuts just like in the Caribbean, and are the only places in the continental US that look like that. South Padre Island would fit in with the second scenario, along with Central Florida, Galveston Island, and Southern California; In South Padre, like in all of the named locations, Coconuts can reach fruiting maturity, and will survive for some time if cared for, before they eventually succumb to the cold that will come from time to time. BUT, the point is, in South Padre Island, and all the other named locations, such cold is infrequent enough that growing coconuts would not be an absolute fruitless effort.

With that in mind, obviously, beaches in South Padre Island would not be lined with coconuts like in South Florida. In addition to the risk of cold, you also have to consider the fact that South Padre is much drier than South Florida, almost to the point of semi-aridity. That lack of precipitation compared to South Florida certainly has an impact. Also, South Padre Island, and South Texas as a whole, is not the "high profile touristy area" that South Florida is; there is not a lot of money in that part of Texas, and it is not very nationally known, so there is not alot of incentive to buy coconut palms, and/or plant them furiously to spruce things up. That also is a key factor to consider when noticing South Padre doesn't have loads of coconuts. However, the point is that temperature-wise, coconut palms on South Padre are not fruitless efforts, and they will last long enough to the point where growing them is reasonable. Coconuts can survive a bit of cold, even the cold conditions of 2011 on SPI, but provided a quick warm-up, as on SPI during that ordeal, they will recover easily. And remember, South Padre Island has the hot and humid tropical-style summers that Coconuts like.

As for the climate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
You'd think Coconut palms would thrive here (compared to the same lattitude in Florida, which is in the Miami area), but there isn't anything blocking that nasty Arctic air from getting to far S. Texas some winters. Same reason why San Antonio doesn't have many palm trees. It's about the same lattitude as Orlando, but can get down into the teens every few winters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
Exactly. The reason South Florida doesn't get the cold blasts that the RGV-South Padre gets, is because Florida is a huge peninsula sticking well out into and surrounded by some of the warmest ocean currents on the planet. The same currents that travel up the Atlantic and allow parts of Western Europe to have palm trees and Citrus trees, even though they're as far North as upstate NY. The ocean regulates climate, therefore Florida is going to have consistently warmer winter weather than extreme South TX.

Texas is different because it's only coastal on one side, and part of the proper continental mainland. Add to that it's centrally located on the North American continent, and subject to the Southern dips that the jet stream takes across the Great Plains in winter, which is what brings those little Arctic blasts as far South as Mexico sometimes.
Indeed, South Padre Island is colder than Miami, even though they are at the same latitude. BUT, lets not use that fact to claim that SPI is colder than it should be; if anything, Miami is warm for the latitude, due to the fact that Miami is on a peninsula sticking into the very warm Gulf Stream (the same stream that allows palm trees to grow even in Norway), while South Padre Island only has water to one side with no very warm stream, and it is precisely those reasons. If Miami had water only to one side, and was without the Gulf Stream, it would get every bit as cold as South Padre Island.

A central location in the North American continent can be the cause of extremes in cold, but that is only if the location is away from a body of water. As South Padre is on a body of water, the central location is thus, has no impact on its climate. Also, the positioning of the Jet Stream dip is changeable; it can dip over the Great Plains, or it can dip in areas further west or east. Arctic blasts, and other such weather systems, contrary to popular belief, don't just head straight south; they have an easterly component in their trajectory as well, and thus, a cold front that hits Texas will then reach Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and other states to the East. And many times, winter air-masses can have a trajectory in such a way that Texas doesn't experience the brunt of their effects, or even at all. The northers that hit Texas are no different than cold fronts in any other state in the US, or regions of the world, so the "arctic air getting so far south unblocked" scenario applies to the entire Eastern US, not just Texas. The example of San Antonio being colder than Orlando, and not having as many palm trees is just the simple fact of San Antonio being further inland than Orlando, and without the moderation of being on a peninsula. Even with that, it is rare for San Antonio to go below 20F, and that is sufficient enough for many palms; many palms can survive even teens, such as the Washingtonias, as well as some Date Palms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
Yeah, that always amazes me that it can get so cold so far south. Brownsville is closer to the Tropic of Cancer than it is to San Antonio! I lived in San Antonio for a couple years and I remember an ice storm where it got down into the teens and many of the few palm trees were killed. And some of the palms that were killed were fairly old, hardy varieties. Vegetation wise, San Antonio isn't much different than Dallas, oddly.

I've also wondered what the U.S. South would look like if the Rockies extended out across maybe Nebraska over to Illinois, creating a high altitude barrier for Arctic air. Of if we could just remove the northern 2/3 of Canada and leave it as ocean. Then there might be Coconut palms in Houston.
Many palm trees can withstand temps in the teens, like the many species of fan palm, and the dates. Just west of San Antonio is the winter garden region of Texas, where crops are grown year round. Look it up.

Coconut Palms have already been experimented with on Galveston Island, which is in the Houston area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
The person you are referring to has some weird agenda to prove the US South is a subtropical paradise. In reality, the US South has the worst and most marginal subtropical climate on the planet, except maybe parts of East Asia (but even there they don't get the extreme cold freezes).

As an example, Mobile, AL has got down to 3F at latitude 30N. Pretty much no where in the Mediterranean, Australia, South America, South Africa, etc, etc. or any other area of every other subtropical climate on earth has ever reached such low temps. And that was in 1985. The reality of winter in the US South, outside deep S. Florida, is back and forth cold and warm all winter long, with no stability in temps. One day 40 and rain, the next day 70F, and the next night 18F. Happens all the time there. And the reason is simply, Canada.

We have a huge frigid landmass to our north, with nothing at all to block the cold air. Every other place on earth either has east-west mountains, large seas or oceans to mitigate and modify polar air. We don't have it. This is the reason south Florida is jam packed with people in winter, and is so over developed. The US has no where else to go to have nice warm winter weather. Brownsville, TX way way down by Mexico has reached 12F. Incredible given the almost tropical 25F latitude. There is no where else on earth at that latitude and at sea level that has reached such a low temp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
What is even more interesting to me is that China has way more land to the west and north of it reaching up into lands much colder than Canada (Siberia). But in winter, every year like clockwork a huge, extremly powerful high pressure area forms called the Siberian High. That high creates cold average temps all the way down into places like Shanghai China (latitude of Savannah) where the Jan avg high/low temp is 47/36F, vs 60/40F for Savannah. The big diference though is that Savannah can and will get down into the teens almost every year, and in 1985 went down to 3F and killed just about every palm tree but those ugly cold hardy sabal palmettos. The average temps in the US South are very deceiving, cause even though Savannah has an avg high of 60F and low of 40F in Jan, it rarely gets stable temps like that. It just fluctuates all over the place from 40f to 70F. Same with the nights. Savannah goes below freezing around 25-30 nights each winter. Another thing is the South looks very, very dead in winter, with almost no green vegetation. I've driven down I-95 and the grass is brown and dead trees all the way thru Geogia. Even here with our cool weather grasses we have greenish winter grass.


Meanwhile, oranges are grown commercially outside Shanghai, and the record low in Shanghai is 14F, but the lowest reached each winter barely goes below 25F, while Savannah goes down into the upper teens. That is make or break for commercial citrus.

That huge Siberian High is so powerful it blocks any extreme low pressure systems coming along and sucking down the polar vortex into China, unlike happens here every so many years.

When it comes to subtropical climates, the US got the worst of the worst. The summers in the South are unbearably hot and humid, and the winters go from teens F one day to ice the next to 70F the next. That will kill just about all subtropical palm trees except the ugly palmetto. This is why Barcelona, Spain has huge Canary Island Date Palms decades old, and in Savannah you can't find one.

You have an even weirder agenda, always going on with your sophomoric claim that the South somehow, of all the subtropical regions on the planet, has the most extremes in cold. Show me any climatologist, or empirical, irrefutable, hard, scientific text that specifically points out the US South as the "most marginal subtropical climate." And please show me that it is an established fact that the US South is more marginal than any other subtropical climate.

The real truth is that, at its normal state, without any cold epoches or patterns, the South is among the warmest subtropical regions in winter; blessed with the warm, subtropical Gulf of Mexico, the South experiences "tropical winter days" unique to the region, where nightly lows, even in the dead of winter, can exceed 60F. Such warm winter nights allow for all kinds tropical/subtropical plants to grow nicely. The Gulf of Mexico, being a warm ocean that hugely indents the continent, allows for subtropical, insular conditions to extend further inland in North America than any other continent; this is how even Southern Illinois has a subtropical climate where tropicals/subtropicals can grow easily. Winter time variation is expected, given that it is not the tropics, no different than any other subtropical climate. Even with the variation, it rarely freezes in any given winter in the Coastal South, AT MOST, only a handful of times each year. Many locations on the Gulf Coast have 365 day growing seasons. The US South has BOTH crocodiles and alligators, multiple species of native palms, many types of parrots, thick, gigantic, EVERGREEN swamps and jungles with TROPICAL Spanish moss, a TROPICAL climate OUTSIDE THE TROPICS, and even jaguars and ocelots. You can grow bananas, mangoes, yams, papayas, citrus, sugar cane, rice, sweet potatoes, star-fruit, jack-fruit, guavas, watermelons, the whole gamut COMMERCIALLY in the South to an effect not seen in many other subtropical climates. Many old-timey southern port cities, such as Galveston, have loads of tall OLD palm trees of even the most tender varieties. There are grown Norfolk Island Pines in every other house on Galveston. Nope, I'm not being irrational, I just believe that the US South has a quote-on-quote baaad subtropical climate. Yep, its a BEAST subtropical climate, and none of your sophomoric claims can prove otherwise.

How do you know that "no other subtropical region" has ever experienced extreme magnitudes of cold at some point in history? How do you know that no other cities on Earth at the latitude of Brownsville and Mobile experienced cold temps at such magnitudes at some point in their existence? The cold temps that were witnessed in the US South were caused by a cold epoch weather pattern over the Eastern US, a phenomenon that ALL subtropical regions on Earth experience from time to time.. For example, Lisbon, Portugal is a warm, Mediterranean city where snow and cold is unheard of in contemporary times, yet go back to history, and you'll see that there were quite a few times when Lisbon experienced heavy blizzards. Each time, the pattern eventually stopped occurring over the Mediterranean, and Lisbon returned back to its natural state. The same thing is slowly, but surely, happening in the Eastern US.

Winter variation does not happen in the South to the degree you claim it does; the variation is not the day by day alternation you make it out to be. Such variation is only regulated to a handful of events each winter, that start with the initial cooler temps immediately after the front, with the following days being at pleasant levels, with conditions gradually warming up, and staying warm until the next cold front. And the same process is seen in other subtropical regions during the cool season. Majority of winter days in the Coastal South, in cities like Houston, NOLA, Tampa, Corpus Christi, Jacksonville, etc are in the 60s and 70s. While I do agree that an East-West barrier of some kind would make the South way warmer than it is, and reduce the variation, even without such a barrier, processes still take place to ensure that the South holds its place as one of the warmest subtropical climates on Earth; remember, the driving winds that guide such mid-latitude frontal systems flow to the east, and don't just go straight south, so the brunt of the systems go east before they break down over the Appalachians, keeping BOTH the Gulf and South Atlantic Coasts warm. The entire Coastal South, and not just Florida, offers mild, stable temps for the snowbirds during winter. Galveston, South Padre, Plaquemines Parish, and Outer Banks would all make snowbirds happy.

Consider yourself debunked.

Last edited by Yn0hTnA; 08-22-2014 at 02:14 PM..
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Old 08-22-2014, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Yep, SoCal has much of this country beat when it comes to the variety of tender plants that can be grown. In addition to Kings, you got Queens, Foxtails, Royals, Dates, Washingtonias, etc. And other than palms, in SoCal, you can grow other tender trees like the Jacaranda and Royal Poinciana. Other than Coastal California, such plants can be seen in lowland Arizona, and the Coastal South.





First things first, I think it is important to make the distinction of where coconut palms can grow wild and free with no problem, and where coconuts can grow provided that they are cared for. In the first scenario, obviously, only South Florida, and the Keys would fit the description, given the tropical climate, seeing that the beaches are profusely lined with coconuts just like in the Caribbean, and are the only places in the continental US that look like that. South Padre Island would fit in with the second scenario, along with Central Florida, Galveston Island, and Southern California; In South Padre, like in all of the named locations, Coconuts can reach fruiting maturity, and will survive for some time if cared for, before they eventually succumb to the cold that will come from time to time. BUT, the point is, in South Padre Island, and all the other named locations, such cold is infrequent enough that growing coconuts would not be an absolute fruitless effort.

With that in mind, obviously, beaches in South Padre Island would not be lined with coconuts like in South Florida. In addition to the risk of cold, you also have to consider the fact that South Padre is much drier than South Florida, almost to the point of semi-aridity. That lack of precipitation compared to South Florida certainly has an impact. Also, South Padre Island, and South Texas as a whole, is not the "high profile touristy area" that South Florida is; there is not a lot of money in that part of Texas, and it is not very nationally known, so there is not alot of incentive to buy coconut palms, and/or plant them furiously to spruce things up. That also is a key factor to consider when noticing South Padre doesn't have loads of coconuts. However, the point is that temperature-wise, coconut palms on South Padre are not fruitless efforts, and they will last long enough to the point where growing them is reasonable. Coconuts can survive a bit of cold, even the cold conditions of 2011 on SPI, but provided a quick warm-up, as on SPI during that ordeal, they will recover easily. And remember, South Padre Island has the hot and humid tropical-style summers that Coconuts like.

As for the climate:





Indeed, South Padre Island is colder than Miami, even though they are at the same latitude. BUT, lets not use that fact to claim that SPI is colder than it should be; if anything, Miami is warm for the latitude, due to the fact that Miami is on a peninsula sticking into the very warm Gulf Stream (the same stream that allows palm trees to grow even in Norway), while South Padre Island only has water to one side with no very warm stream, and it is precisely those reasons. If Miami had water only to one side, and was without the Gulf Stream, it would get every bit as cold as South Padre Island.

A central location in the North American continent can be the cause of extremes in cold, but that is only if the location is away from a body of water. As South Padre is on a body of water, the central location is thus, has no impact on its climate. Also, the positioning of the Jet Stream dip is changeable; it can dip over the Great Plains, or it can dip in areas further west or east. Arctic blasts, and other such weather systems, contrary to popular belief, don't just head straight south; they have an easterly component in their trajectory as well, and thus, a cold front that hits Texas will then reach Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and other states to the East. And many times, winter air-masses can have a trajectory in such a way that Texas doesn't experience the brunt of their effects, or even at all. The northers that hit Texas are no different than cold fronts in any other state in the US, or regions of the world, so the "arctic air getting so far south unblocked" scenario applies to the entire Eastern US, not just Texas. The example of San Antonio being colder than Orlando, and not having as many palm trees is just the simple fact of San Antonio being further inland than Orlando, and without the moderation of being on a peninsula. Even with that, it is rare for San Antonio to go below 20F, and that is sufficient enough for many palms; many palms can survive even teens, such as the Washingtonias, as well as some Date Palms.



Many palm trees can withstand temps in the teens, like the many species of fan palm, and the dates. Just west of San Antonio is the winter garden region of Texas, where crops are grown year round. Look it up.

Coconut Palms have already been experimented with on Galveston Island, which is in the Houston area.






You have an even weirder agenda, always going on with your sophomoric claim that the South somehow, of all the subtropical regions on the planet, has the most extremes in cold. Show me any climatologist, or empirical, irrefutable, hard, scientific text that specifically points out the US South as the "most marginal subtropical climate." And please show me that it is an established fact that the US South is more marginal than any other subtropical climate.

The real truth is that, at its normal state, without any cold epoches or patterns, the South is among the warmest subtropical regions in winter; blessed with the warm, subtropical Gulf of Mexico, the South experiences "tropical winter days" unique to the region, where nightly lows, even in the dead of winter, can exceed 60F. Such warm winter nights allow for all kinds tropical/subtropical plants to grow nicely. The Gulf of Mexico, being a warm ocean that hugely indents the continent, allows for subtropical, insular conditions to extend further inland in North America than any other continent; this is how even Southern Illinois has a subtropical climate where tropicals/subtropicals can grow easily. Winter time variation is expected, given that it is not the tropics, no different than any other subtropical climate. Even with the variation, it rarely freezes in any given winter in the Coastal South, AT MOST, only a handful of times each year. Many locations on the Gulf Coast have 365 day growing seasons. The US South has BOTH crocodiles and alligators, multiple species of native palms, many types of parrots, thick, gigantic, EVERGREEN swamps and jungles with TROPICAL Spanish moss, a TROPICAL climate OUTSIDE THE TROPICS, and even jaguars and ocelots. You can grow bananas, mangoes, yams, papayas, citrus, sugar cane, rice, sweet potatoes, star-fruit, jack-fruit, guavas, watermelons, the whole gamut COMMERCIALLY in the South to an effect not seen in many other subtropical climates. Nope, I'm not being irrational, I just believe that the US South has a quote-on-quote baaad subtropical climate. Yep, its a BEAST subtropical climate, and none of your sophomoric claims can prove otherwise.

How do you know that "no other subtropical region" has ever experienced extreme magnitudes of cold at some point in history? How do you know that no other cities on Earth at the latitude of Brownsville and Mobile experienced cold temps at such magnitudes at some point in their existence? The cold temps that were witnessed in the US South were caused by a cold epoch weather pattern over the Eastern US, a phenomenon that ALL subtropical regions on Earth experience from time to time.. For example, Lisbon, Portugal is a warm, Mediterranean city where snow and cold is unheard of in contemporary times, yet go back to history, and you'll see that there were quite a few times when Lisbon experienced heavy blizzards. Each time, the pattern eventually stopped occurring over the Mediterranean, and Lisbon returned back to its natural state. The same thing is slowly, but surely, happening in the Eastern US.

Winter variation does not happen in the South to the degree you claim it does; the variation is not the day by day alternation you make it out to be. Such variation is only regulated to a handful of events each winter, that start with the initial cooler temps immediately after the front, with the following days being at pleasant levels, with conditions gradually warming up, and staying warm until the next cold front. And the same process is seen in other subtropical regions during the cool season. Majority of winter days in the Coastal South, in cities like Houston, NOLA, Tampa, Corpus Christi, Jacksonville, etc are in the 60s and 70s. While I do agree that an East-West barrier of some kind would make the South way warmer than it is, and reduce the variation, even without such a barrier, processes still take place to ensure that the South holds its place as one of the warmest subtropical climates on Earth; remember, the driving winds that guide such mid-latitude frontal systems flow to the east, and don't just go straight south, so the brunt of the systems go east before they break down over the Appalachians, keeping BOTH the Gulf and South Atlantic Coasts warm. The entire Coastal South, and not just Florida, offers mild, stable temps for the snowbirds during winter. Galveston, South Padre, Plaquemines Parish, and Outer Banks would all make snowbirds happy.

Consider yourself debunked.

Consider yourself debunked. It isn't rare for San Antonio to go below 20F, on average it happens once every single year. Look it up on NOAA. Over the last 30 odd years, SA averages one day per year with a low temp of 20F or lower. There is no whacked out "cold epoch" going on here. I will ask you again for the umpteenth time to prove it with a link to scientific papers pointing out that the US is going thru a "cold epoch". You really have no clue.
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
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Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
The person you are referring to has some weird agenda to prove the US South is a subtropical paradise. In reality, the US South has the worst and most marginal subtropical climate on the planet, except maybe parts of East Asia (but even there they don't get the extreme cold freezes).

As an example, Mobile, AL has got down to 3F at latitude 30N. Pretty much no where in the Mediterranean, Australia, South America, South Africa, etc, etc. or any other area of every other subtropical climate on earth has ever reached such low temps. And that was in 1985. The reality of winter in the US South, outside deep S. Florida, is back and forth cold and warm all winter long, with no stability in temps. One day 40 and rain, the next day 70F, and the next night 18F. Happens all the time there. And the reason is simply, Canada.

We have a huge frigid landmass to our north, with nothing at all to block the cold air. Every other place on earth either has east-west mountains, large seas or oceans to mitigate and modify polar air. We don't have it. This is the reason south Florida is jam packed with people in winter, and is so over developed. The US has no where else to go to have nice warm winter weather. Brownsville, TX way way down by Mexico has reached 12F. Incredible given the almost tropical 25F latitude. There is no where else on earth at that latitude and at sea level that has reached such a low temp.
Look at the record lows in San Francisco and how far north it is. Then look at the record lows in San Diego.

Frost is rare in San Francisco and non-existent in San Diego. The West Coast has mild weather in the winter, many times warmer than South Florida. I was in Miami once with highs in the mid 50's and lows in the 30's. At the same time, it was 65 in San Diego.
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Originally Posted by cBach View Post
Look at the record lows in San Francisco and how far north it is. Then look at the record lows in San Diego.

Frost is rare in San Francisco and non-existent in San Diego. The West Coast has mild weather in the winter, many times warmer than South Florida. I was in Miami once with highs in the mid 50's and lows in the 30's. At the same time, it was 65 in San Diego.

Much more stability on the West Coast than eastern US. But for stability, China and that huge Siberian High takes the cake. In the US in winter it is one low pressure system after another tracking across the country, or dropping down into it in the winter. Hence our instability.
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Who Cares, USA
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Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
In addition to the risk of cold, you also have to consider the fact that South Padre is much drier than South Florida, almost to the point of semi-aridity.

And remember, South Padre Island has the hot and humid tropical-style summers that Coconuts like.
One of these things is not like the other. Do you see the contradiction? S. Padre gets roughly 28 inches of rainfall annually, on average. Not as wet as Galveston, but not quite what I would term a "semi-arid" climate. Then there's the constant high levels of humidity, as you pointed out. It is not tropical. It is in the same climate zone as the rest of the Texas coast; humid SUB-tropical. That "sub" makes all the difference. You can argue this all you like, but the fact of the matter is that coconut palms do not, have not, and will not survive in that climate. The reason people don't pump money into planting them there is because it would be a huge waste of money and the trees would never live to anywhere near maturity, unless they were inside a giant greenhouse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
If Miami had water only to one side, and was without the Gulf Stream, it would get every bit as cold as South Padre Island.
But it doesn't. If Alaska were part of Australia rather than North America, the toilets would flush in the opposite direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
A central location in the North American continent can be the cause of extremes in cold, but that is only if the location is away from a body of water.
Not true. The warming effect that the Gulf of Mexico has on coastal Texas is no match for a raging arctic cold front diving down the path of the jet stream into more Southern latitudes. It's not like these massive cold air masses just stop dead in their tracks once they approach the coast. I've been at the beach when a cold front hits, and guess what? It keeps going. In a matter of minutes the temp can drop from 82 to 30... at the beach. I've experienced this firsthand several times growing up in coastal Texas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
As South Padre is on a body of water, the central location is thus, has no impact on its climate.
Once again, totally false. Where are you getting this from? It's not like S. Padre is some isolated island out in the middle of the gulf. It's a barrier island with only a couple or few miles separating it from the mainland, and as such, it's climate is pretty much identical to Port Isabel or Brownsville, except maybe a little breezier. "No impact"? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Many palm trees can withstand temps in the teens, like the many species of fan palm, and the dates. Just west of San Antonio is the winter garden region of Texas, where crops are grown year round. Look it up.
Yeah, but none of those are coconut palms. Or Papayas, or Mangoes, or any other form of actual tropical fruit-bearing plants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA View Post
Coconut Palms have already been experimented with on Galveston Island, which is in the Houston area.
And they failed. That's why you'll never see any there.

It really does seem like you have an agenda to try and convince people that the Texas coast is in the tropics. I don't say this to be mean or to belittle you. It's just an observation of a pattern I've noticed in a pretty large percentage of your posts, ever since I first joined C-D. And it flies in the face of facts.
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cBach View Post
Look at the record lows in San Francisco and how far north it is. Then look at the record lows in San Diego.

Frost is rare in San Francisco and non-existent in San Diego. The West Coast has mild weather in the winter, many times warmer than South Florida. I was in Miami once with highs in the mid 50's and lows in the 30's. At the same time, it was 65 in San Diego.
Maybe San Diego but most of the West Coast gets pretty cold in the winter sometimes. It's not uncommon for it to get down to 29F in San Jose. In Miami that's very rare.
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post

It really does seem like you have an agenda to try and convince people that the Texas coast is in the tropics. I don't say this to be mean or to belittle you. It's just an observation of a pattern I've noticed in a pretty large percentage of your posts, ever since I first joined C-D. And it flies in the face of facts.

He or she does that with all of the Southeast US coast. None of the Southeast coast is tropical, save a tiny sliver at the tip of the FL peninsula, but he just won't buy it. He is trying to convince himself the US has this wonderful subtropical region, while in reality it doesn't. You can barely get Jacaranda trees to full maturity in Orlando, FL, while they thrive in just about every other subtropical climate including Italy, Spain, Australia, South Africa, Argentina, etc.

But look here at what the Orlando Sentinel states:

Purple-flowering Jacaranda Trees Are Fair-weather Friends - Orlando Sentinel
PLANT DOCTOR


August 10, 2002|By Tom MacCubbin, Sentinel Columnist

Question: I live in southwest Orlando. Do purple jacaranda trees grow here?



Answer: Many gardeners would like to grow the attractive purple-flowering jacarandas that bloom during late spring. However, they are not cold hardy. During the warmer years, the trees usually grow to flowering size only to be damaged by colder winters. Some years they are frozen to the ground.



If you are near a lake or your area is naturally warm, it might be worth taking the risk of planting a jacaranda. Gardeners also should note these are rather large trees growing to 50 feet tall with a canopy that is 60 feet wide. They also produce an extensive root system. One jacaranda can shade the average front or back yard, leaving little room for sun-loving plants.



If a person even has to ask if the tree grows there, they are obviously not even seeing them around the area. A person in these other countries would never ask cause the tree is so beautiful and unmistakable.

The fact that the amazing and beautiful Jacaranda tree cannot grow as far south in the US as Orlando is proof positive of the terrible nature of our marginal subtropical climates. That along with the fact that in the 1980's millions and millions of acres of citrus trees were taken out by cold air right out of Canada.

He never refutes any of this info I post, just keeps blabbing on about the "tropical paradise" that is the southeast US and this bizarre "cold epoch" nonsense. He really must be a 16 year old kid or something. LMAO.
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