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View Poll Results: Next state to leave the South?
Virginia 37 48.05%
North Carolina 6 7.79%
Georgia 4 5.19%
Florida 20 25.97%
Texas 15 19.48%
Kentucky 2 2.60%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-27-2014, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,654 posts, read 36,118,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Even still, it was "clearly once southern with all of the pride of the South and all of its prejudices." If Baltimore can become "non-southern," then that means other southern places (i.e., Richmond, Virginia) can also become "non-southern."
Like I've said from the start, societies morph and change over time. In my lifetime, I've become a minority in my own state - where once white people were the majority. I've seen whole Texas towns change from a "southern vibe" to a "Latino vibe."

I've also seen "the south" move from segregation through the Civil Rights movement to being no more prejudiced in my opinion than any other region - and markedly less so than some areas.

So what? Time marches on. Like I said in my first post on this thread, just ask the American Indians about that. There was a time in their long history here when the concept of white men taking over their hunting grounds would have seemed absolutely nonsensical.

So sure - cities can change. Regions can change. Identities can be totally swept away, or altered, or traditions kept as vestiges of a past that the people of the present don't even really understand. So in that sense, sure - whatever you identify as "southern" (and that varies from person to person) is going to shift, morph, change, develop over time.

You know what - there's no such entity as Prussia any more either. Or Czechoslovakia. Or Abyssinia, or Corsica, or East and West Germany, just to name a few countries and regions whose identities have changed over time.

You brought up racism, not me, but let's use that one concept as an example. The South and "southern living" isn't defined by one characteristic alone. If racism or pride defined what's "southern" then I guess Detroit and Chicago and Idaho and any number of other places throughout this country are actually SOUTHERN and they just don't know it!

Just as we can't neatly define "the south" as "whichever states are members of the Southern Legislative Conference" or "whichever states seceded in the Civil War" or "slave holding states," or "places where it gets really hot in the summer but winters are mild," or "places where people eat grits," we can't define which states are "southern" or which states have "decided not to be southern" by one or two criteria. It's cumulative.

A good example of this is the ongoing debate in the Texas forum about whether or not Texas is a southern state. Many west Texans in particular are aghast at the very idea of it. They can't see ANYTHING that feels southern to them in their environment and they don't relate to what they perceive as a "southern mindset or lifestyle" at all. But many East Texans are adamant that Texas is a southern state. They see southern influence and culture everywhere they look. So which is it? Grits...or hash browns?

It's both. And probably always will be - at least until Huevos Rancheros pushes both off the menu at the local greasy spoon.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,220,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
I misread the title and put Texas thinking we were talking about seceding from statehood. I would choose Maryland which is most likely to secede.
But according to some posters, it was never in the South. The Census doesn't establish anything because it's simply one source. Being a member of the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association can't really mean much since Puerto Rico also joined. Slavery and Jim Crow don't mean anything since Massachusetts also had slavery. The fact that Whites in the DC area had southern accents in the 60s doesn't mean anything. And the countless historians that place Maryland in the South means nothing because those are just their opinions.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Who Cares, USA
2,343 posts, read 2,749,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat_popsicle View Post
Takes one to know one, eh?
Spin it any way you want. Your desperation is amusing.
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,220,119 times
Reputation: 11706
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Like I've said from the start, societies morph and change over time. In my lifetime, I've become a minority in my own state - where once white people were the majority. I've seen whole Texas towns change from a "southern vibe" to a "Latino vibe."
Again, what does that have to do with Maryland in 1950?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
You brought up racism, not me, but let's use that one concept as an example. The South and "southern living" isn't defined by one characteristic alone. If racism or pride defined what's "southern" then I guess Detroit and Chicago and Idaho and any number of other places throughout this country are actually SOUTHERN and they just don't know it!
The racism is beside the point (there's a difference between "racism" and Jim Crow anyhow). The point was that you had Marylanders like John Waters identifying the state as a southern state. And that's the case in many of the historical accounts you read about Maryland.

And by your lofty standards, it is nearly impossible to put any state in the South (ever) because people could just disagree with the historical sources. You could provide me 5,568 sources saying that Georgia was a southern state in 1960 and I could just shake my head and say, "Nope, no it wasn't. It wasn't clear. I disagree." I could provide this passage, for example...

Quote:
Sixty years ago, when Truman Gibson reported for duty at the War Department, Washington, D.C. was a southern city in its unbending segregation as well as in its steamy summers. Gibson had no illusions, but as someone who'd enjoyed the best of the vibrant black culture of prewar America, he was shocked to find the worst of the Jim Crow South in the nation's capital.
Knocking Down Barriers | Northwestern University Press

Or this..

Quote:
"It was Southern, and you learned that very quickly."
Sleepy, Southern And Segregated: What D.C. Was Like In '63 : NPR

And it wouldn't even matter because you would just say "Disagree." In that case, there's really nothing more to discuss because I can't really argue with someone who just dismisses historical sources (especially without providing any).
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,654 posts, read 36,118,702 times
Reputation: 63197
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
But according to some posters, it was never in the South. The Census doesn't establish anything because it's simply one source. Being a member of the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association can't really mean much since Puerto Rico also joined. Slavery and Jim Crow don't mean anything since Massachusetts also had slavery. The fact that Whites in the DC area had southern accents in the 60s doesn't mean anything. And the countless historians that place Maryland in the South means nothing because those are just their opinions.
To clarify my position (in case you're trying to rephrase what I've clearly said):

1. Maryland is geographically not in the southern quadrant of the US. Geographically it is in the northeastern quadrant of the US.

2. Maryland was a slave holding state which did not secede and which provided about 60,000 troops to the Union and 25,000 troops to the Confederacy. As this short example shows, Maryland has a complicated past as well as a complex identity - an identity that is a mixture of northern and southern and mid Atlantic values, history, and lifestyles.

3. Places and identities and lifestyles change over time, and this is to be expected. Since that's pretty inevitable, it's also inevitable that the whole concept of "what's southern" will change as well. Will that mean that places are "no longer southern" or will it mean that the definition of "southern" will change? I believe the latter. I've used Texas as an example, and will do so again - Do I consider Texas "no longer Texas" because it's demographics have changed so markedly in the past thirty years or so? No. Texas has changed - but it's still Texas. The South may change, but it's still the South. One doesn't have to own slaves, or fly a Confederate flag, or vote Republican to be southern, any more than one has to employ child labor in factories, join a gang in New York, or vote Democratic to be northern.
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,220,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Maryland is geographically not in the southern quadrant of the US. Geographically it is in the northeastern quadrant of the US.
Neither is Virginia. Geography is not as literal as you're making it out to be. If it were, then there'd be no way in hell NYC could be a "Mid Atlantic" city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Maryland was a slave holding state which did not secede and which provided about 60,000 troops to the Union and 25,000 troops to the Confederacy. As this short example shows, Maryland has a complicated past as well as a complex identity - an identity that is a mixture of northern and southern and mid Atlantic values, history, and lifestyles.
That has nothing to do with how Marylanders thought of themselves and their state in 1950. By nearly all historical accounts, it was southern, and unless you provide some good historical sources to contradict this, then I suggest you give it a rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Places and identities and lifestyles change over time, and this is to be expected.
Exactly. And that means Virginia can stop identifying with the South just as Maryland did.
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Derby, CT
3,584 posts, read 2,500,566 times
Reputation: 2927
Last part of the Maryland state song part 9

IX

I hear the distant thunder-hum,
Maryland!
The Old Line's bugle, fife, and drum,
Maryland!
She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb-
Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!
She breathes! she burns! she'll come! she'll come!
Maryland! My Maryland!

Cause Maryland is obviously northern :-)
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,220,119 times
Reputation: 11706
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf39us View Post
Last part of the Maryland state song part 9

IX

I hear the distant thunder-hum,
Maryland!
The Old Line's bugle, fife, and drum,
Maryland!
She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb-
Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!
She breathes! she burns! she'll come! she'll come!
Maryland! My Maryland!

Cause Maryland is obviously northern :-)
It's complicated. See, the Maryland legislature did adopt that song in 1939, more than a half century after the Civil War, but that was only over the objections of the Quaker minority who represented at least 40% of the state back then. It was a really close vote and the state was really divided. Same thing when Maryland joined both the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association. Marylanders weren't interested in Jim Crow; it's just that Strom Thurmond had some really good ideas on soil conservation and Maryland really needed to conserve soil back in those days.

True, the Census put Maryland in the South. But it was considering putting Maryland in the Northeast. In fact, the Census guys flipped a coin ("Heads Maryland's the Northeast, Tails Maryland's the South"). So the decision to put Maryland in the South was completely arbitrary in the first place.

Once you add up all of these facts, you really begin to see that Maryland never really had a southern identity.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 08-27-2014 at 01:46 PM..
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,654 posts, read 36,118,702 times
Reputation: 63197
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Quote:
Neither is Virginia. Geography is not as literal as you're making it out to be. If it were, then there'd be no way in hell NYC could be a "Mid Atlantic" city.
Actually GEOGRAPHY is pretty darn literal. Now - the question of whether or not a state is part of the "south" isn't literal, though. Which is why I have never said that Maryland can't be considered part of the south (instead, I've stated that a valid argument could be made for or against that stance), and why I've made it clear EVERY TIME that I mention the geographically it's in the northeastern quadrant, that's not the only criteria to look at.

http://apps.bts.gov/programs/geograp...ges/map_us.gif

By the way, some of Virginia definitely falls in the southern quadrant of the US. None of Maryland does. I'm just sayin'.

Quote:
That has nothing to do with how Marylanders thought of themselves and their state in 1950. By nearly all historical accounts, it was southern, and unless you provide some good historical sources to contradict this, then I suggest you give it a rest.
Maryland's "southernness" or lack thereof doesn't hinge simply on what Marylanders in the 1950s thought of themselves or their state. I guess you missed that historical part about Maryland not seceding, about Maryland sending twice as many troops to fight with the Union than they did with the Confederacy, yada yada yada.

But since you bring up Maryland in the 1950s, you may find this article interesting.

Quote:
In 1956, a Tennessee woman wrote to the State Department of Information asking whether Maryland was a Northern or Southern state. The department told her to draw her own conclusion based on the following (which was reprinted in The Baltimore Sun at the time):

1. "Maryland lies south of the Mason and Dixon Line."

2. "Only eleven states in the country produce maple syrup; Maryland is the southernmost state that produces this product."

3. "Almost all Southern states have cypress swamps. Maryland has the northernmost cypress swamp."

4. "Many Northern and Southern states produce tobacco; so does Maryland."

5. "Virginia pines grow in most Southern states; hemlock trees grow in most Northern states; Maryland produces both."

6. "The mockingbird is considered a Southern bird; there are many in Maryland.'

7. "Fried chicken is considered a Southern delicacy; Maryland fried chicken is world famous."

8. "During the War Between the States, sometimes called the Civil War, Maryland had troops in both the Union and Confederate armies."

9. "Maryland's 175th Infantry is authorized to carry the Confederate flag."

10. "Maryland belongs to the Southern Governor's Conference."

11. "Maryland belongs to both the Northern and Southern Regional Park Conference."

12. "Maryland belongs to the Federal Government's Eastern Coastal Migratory Bird Flyway."

13. "At Gettysburg, there are monuments to the Maryland Regiment, U.S.A, and the Maryland Regiment, C.S.A."

14. "At Antietam battlefield, sometimes called Sharpsburg, there is a monument to the memory of the men of Maryland 'who died here for their convictions.' "

The department added at the end: "Most Marylanders find it difficult to answer the question. Some consider themselves Southerners; others as Northerners. Perhaps the truth lives between the extremes."
Is Baltimore A Southern City | Are we Northern? Southern? Yes. - Page 2 - Baltimore Sun

Quote:
And that means Virginia can stop identifying with the South just as Maryland did.
Many more things are possible than are probable. It COULD happen. The majority of Virginians could stop identifying with the South, and I could also run a 10 mile marathon next year.
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,220,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Actually GEOGRAPHY is pretty darn literal.
It's not literal. If it was so literal, then how is New York considered the "Mid Atlantic" when it's nowhere close to the middle of the Eastern Seaboard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Now - the question of whether or not a state was part of the "south" isn't literal, though.
Fixed that for you. Because every time I talk about the historical record, you simply switch back and talk about what the state is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
By the way, some of Virginia definitely falls in the southern quadrant of the US. None of Maryland does. I'm just sayin'.
All of Ohio falls within the northeastern quadrant. I'm just saying'

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Maryland's "southernness" or lack thereof doesn't hinge simply on what Marylanders in the 1950s thought of themselves or their state.
What else could it hinge on? Regional identity, more than anything, is about what region people actually identify with. In 2014, a majority of Marylanders do not identify with the South (though 40% did as recently as 2000). That doesn't mean that that was also the case in 1950. The state had a clear southern identity back then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I guess you missed that historical part about Maryland not seceding, about Maryland sending twice as many troops to fight with the Union than they did with the Confederacy, yada yada yada.
Kentucky also didn't secede from the Union. Kentucky had troops fight for the Union. Yet, nobody says Kentucky was at no point a solidly southern state. If anything, you could argue that Kentucky was less southern than Maryland in 1860 because it favored a non-seccession candidate by a healthy margin. Had Maryland not been placed under martial law, who knows what would have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
But since you bring up Maryland in the 1950s, you may find this article interesting.
Got any good historical sources saying that Maryland was never a southern state?

Quote:
Geographically, Maryland was a Southern state and when Southern states began to secede in 1861, a decision to join the Confederacy would have made Washington untenable as the Union capital.
Quote:
Maryland was a Southern state. There was sort of a traditional sisterhood between her and Virginia.
A History of the United States - Cecil Chesterton - Google Books

Quote:
Maryland was a Southern state and Baltimore was the epicenter of Confederate passion there.
Brag Bowling: President Lincoln suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus along the military lines between Philadelphia and Annapolis in April; was it used primarily as a political tool to harass and intimidate residents? - A House Divided - The Washington
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