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View Poll Results: Next state to leave the South?
Virginia 37 48.05%
North Carolina 6 7.79%
Georgia 4 5.19%
Florida 20 25.97%
Texas 15 19.48%
Kentucky 2 2.60%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-27-2014, 02:38 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,237 posts, read 19,536,382 times
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Thanks for the link, Kathryn. Basically, you're correct that Maryland has had both northern and southern characteristics throughout its history.

Today, Maryland is mainly a northeastern state with some southern influences.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,719 posts, read 36,145,910 times
Reputation: 63325
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post

OK, this is it and I'll say no more about it, because I have wasted large swaths of a perfectly good day, apparently talking to a large and uncomprehending boulder about Maryland of all things. And I could have mastered the art of making banana pudding from scratch, or gone and had a pedicure, or volunteered at the food pantry! What a waste of my time this has been!

Quote:
It's not literal. If it was so literal, then how is New York considered the "Mid Atlantic" when it's nowhere close to the middle of the Eastern Seaboard?
OMG.

Geographically NY state is not a "mid Atlantic state." Culturally, it is (I'm taking the consensus of others as fact when I say that because I've never been there). Geography is precise. Sociology is not. And that's OK.

Quote:
Fixed that for you. Because every time I talk about the historical record, you simply switch back and talk about what the state is.
But wait...a while back, you accused me of focusing too much on the 1800s! Then when I give you a source from what apparently is the era of Maryland's history that you think defines it's entirety - the 1950s - you don't even acknowledge that.

Very strange.

Quote:
All of Ohio falls within the northeastern quadrant. I'm just saying'
Yeah - gotta love those latitudes and longitudes and all that precise sciencey stuff. I'd be the first to point out to you that Ohio falls within the NE quadrant if we were discussing Ohio. And get this (this is the really cool part), Ohio shares some common characteristics of (drum roll please) - THE NORTHEAST. Geographically, it falls within the NE and consequently, though we call it a Midwestern state, it has some NE qualities to it as well! Imagine that.

And get this - Northern Arkansas has some midwestern qualities to it but it's squarely in the SOUTHEAST QUADRANT geographically. And Arkansas is a southern state! Damn those Ozark Mountain folks for not embracing their southern heritage fully! What's wrong with them?????

Oh wait - geography is only part of the equation. But...it IS part of it. It can't be just ignored.

Quote:
What else could it hinge on? Regional identity, more than anything, is about what region people actually identify with. In 2014, a majority of Marylanders do not identify with the South (though 40% did as recently as 2000). That doesn't mean that that was also the case in 1950. The state had a clear southern identity back then.
Apparently not - since people were writing in to the Maryland State Department of Information back in the 1950s with the same question we're discussing today - "Is Maryland a Southern or Northern state?" and the Maryland State Department of Information couldn't give them a straight answer then either.

Quote:
Kentucky also didn't secede from the Union. Kentucky had troops fight for the Union. Yet, nobody says Kentucky was at no point a solidly southern state. If anything, you could argue that Kentucky was less southern than Maryland in 1860 because it favored a non-seccession candidate by a healthy margin. Had Maryland not been placed under martial law, who knows what would have happened.
Is Delaware a southern state? Has it ever been a "solidly southern state?" It was a slave state. It never declared an Emancipation Proclamation. There were several thousand Confederate troops from Delaware, and at the time of the civil war, both US senators and the governor from Delaware were pro-Confederacy. So why do we consider Kentucky "solidly south" and Delaware certainly NOT "southern?" And there's Maryland, right in the middle of both. Oh, and just so you know, there's some debate as to whether or not Kentucky, yet another "border state" IS really culturally "southern." But that's for another day - when I have more time to waste, if I'm so inclined.
Is Kentucky Southern? | The Weekly Standard
| Delaware History: The state's role in the Civil War

To further complicate things, the US Census Bureau states that Delaware is a SOUTHERN state. Is it? Was it ever? Clearly things aren't all that clear when it comes to defining "The South." I have a feeling that even 150 years ago, residents of Delaware would have been shocked to discover that they were considered to be Southern by a large government agency.

Quote:
B]
Got any good historical sources saying that Maryland was never a southern state?[/b]
I've got all sorts of historical and other sources saying that it's very DEBATABLE. And apparently, this discussion proves that point once again.

Is Baltimore A Southern City | Are we Northern? Southern? Yes. - Page 2 - Baltimore Sun

Which States Are in the South? | FiveThirtyEight

All About Maryland

Where Does the South Begin? - The Atlantic

This article states it better than I can, so I'll quote it:

Quote:
Located at 39 degrees N, 76 degrees W, Maryland is a Border State. Positioned south of the Mason-Dixon Line, Maryland is the northernmost state in the South and the southernmost state in the North. As such, "The Old Line State" has long had an identity crisis. In the early- to mid-1800s, Maryland's geographic and topographic diversity resulted in a state whose regions were very different economically, socially, and politically. The state could have been described as caught between two regions at the time: one urban, industrial, and based on free labor, and the other rural, agrarian, and dependent on enslaved labor. Consequently, depending on the selected criteria, Maryland can be labeled both North and South. Yet, when viewed as a complete entity, Maryland is best described as a "middle ground."

By examining maps, lithographs, photographs, letters, paintings and other types of sources, students will apply the concept of regions by placing Maryland in the North, the South, or the "middle ground," while providing justification for their choice. In doing so, students will demonstrate the ability to evaluate factors that contributed to the growing sectionalism that ultimately resulted in the Civil War.
Center for History Education Online Lessons

But this satirical piece says it best of all:

Quote:
Maryland’s Identity Crisis
Posted on January 22, 2013 by admin
“Virginia? Can you help me, please?”

Maryland was standing in my doorway, biting her lip nervously. One of her tiny hands was fluttering around the tie of her frilly dress, and the other was pulling at a curl of golden hair. I held my breath and kept silent, hoping she’d take the hint and leave.

Of course, being Maryland, she didn’t. Instead, she simply stood there, looking pathetic, until I could take it no longer.

“Yes?” I asked, swiveling around and adjusting my spectacles.

“V-Virginia…” Maryland whispered, tugging her hair even harder. “Can I ask you a question?”

You just did, I almost said, but caught myself just in time. “Shoot.”

“Um… well… I was thinking, you know-”

I fought to keep myself from rolling my eyes. Maryland, thinking? Amazing.

“And, well, I was wondering… Am- am I…” Her voice trailed off, and she flushed a delicate pink.

“Are you?” I prompted.

“Am I Northern or Southern?” she blurted, her cheeks reddening even more. I blinked.

“What?”

“I mean- well, I don’t know! I asked Georgia, and she said Southern, but then I asked Massachusetts and he said Northern!”

“I really don’t know,” I said. “Look, Maryland, if that’s all you wanted to ask, then-”

Before I could finish my sentence, I found myself being violently shaken by the shoulders.

“You- don’t- understand!” Maryland shrieked. I gulped. The look in her eyes could only be described as… disturbing.

“I didn’t even take a side in the Civil War!” she continued, shaking me harder. “Oh, Virginia, what if I don’t belong in the Union at all? What if I’m just an outcast?”

“Maryland,” I said as calmly as I could, “every one of us belongs in the Union, you included. Now please stop shaking me.”

Maryland stopped and blinked rapidly. “You- you think so?” she sniffed.

“Absolutely,” I said, looking up at her from my current position on the floor.

“But Virginia-” Maryland started, looking unsure.

California chose that moment to walk in, dripping wet and clutching an oversized umbrella.

“Virginia, man, it’s hella raining out there, I- um, you know you’re lying on the floor, right? And- Maryland…? Am I interrupting something? I can, you know, leave-”

“Wait!” Maryland had gotten that psychotic look in her eyes again – at least this time it was directed at someone else. “California, you have to help me!”

California smiled at her. “Sure, what do you need?”

“I need you,” Maryland said, leaning forward and directing an intense stare at him, “to answer my question.”

California gulped nervously. “Oookay…?”

“Am I Northern… or Southern?”

California stared at her. Maryland stared back.

“Dude… I don’t know,” California finally said, shrugging.

“Please!” Maryland hissed, grabbing his shirt collar – no mean feat, considering California’s immense height. California’s eyes widened.

“Seriously, dude, I don’t know… I’m Western, I don’t know how things work out East… Maryland- Maryland, please don’t- Virginia, man, help me out here!”

“Hey, I brought peaches!” Georgia chirped, strolling into the room and swinging a large basket. “They’re- oh my God, Maryland, why are you throttling California? And why is Virginia huddled in the corner?”

Maryland turned to Georgia. “Georgia…” she said faintly. “No one’s answering me…”

Georgia sighed. “Is this about that North-South thing again?”

That’s when Maryland broke down and started sobbing hysterically. “Y-you said I was Southern, but Massachusetts said I’m Northern, and Virginia didn’t know, and California started acting weird!”

Georgia glanced at California, who had evidently found his own corner to huddle in.

“Honey,” Georgia said softly, placing a hand on Maryland’s shoulder, “honestly, it doesn’t matter.”

“It matters to me!” Maryland’s death glare was now directed full force on Georgia, who took a few quick steps backward.

“Honey, I’m sure we can figure something out. Why do you want to know so badly? It won’t change a thing…”

“Because!” Maryland wailed. “Everyone else has a national identity! You and Virginia are Southern, California’s Western, there’s the Midwest and the Southwest and the Northwest and I don’t fit in any of them!”

“Darling-” Georgia started tentatively, but was abruptly cut off by Delaware, who had just entered the room. Normally I would be irritated – I had never particularly liked Delaware – but now all I felt was relief. If anyone could snap Maryland out of her fit, it would be her brother.

“Virginia, I- Mary? What’s going on?”

Maryland turned her tear-streaked face to Delaware and stared at him for a moment, before breaking into a run and throwing herself into his arms.

“Whoa, sis,” Delaware said, staggering back a little. “What-”

“No one’s answering me!” Maryland yelled. Delaware cocked his head and looked confused.

“What’s your question?” he asked.

“Am I Northern or Southern?” Maryland asked, lip trembling. “I don’t know my national identity… Delly, how can I be a state if I don’t have a national identity? I should just secede now!”

“Why not be both?” Delaware asked.

Maryland goggled at him. “B-both…?”

“You said you didn’t feel like you belonged, right?” Delaware said, wrapping an arm around his sister’s shoulders. “Well, now you’ll belong double, because you’ll be part of both areas.”

“Yeah!” California said, pumping his fist. “Hella awesome idea, Delaware, man!”

“It’s… not bad,” I admitted. Dammit, why hadn’t I thought of that? My IQ is at least twice Delaware’s…

“Lovely,” Georgia chimed in.

“You-you think so?” Maryland asked. “You think I can be part of… both?”

Delaware nodded. “Absolutely. And don’t you dare talk of secession, Mary, or of not having a ‘national identity.’ You’re just as much a state as I am. And I live right next to you, remember? You don’t have to be Northern, or Southern, or Eastern or Western or anything to be part of the United States.” Gently, he put a finger on Maryland’s chin and propped her face up. “All you have to do is be yourself – Maryland, the seventh state of the United States… and my sister.”

I gaped at Delaware, utterly dumbfounded. He’d always seemed so… slow; where’d he pull a speech like that from? To my left, I heard Georgia clapping softly.

“Hear, hear!” California called. “Here’s to the United States!”

Maryland looked up at her brother through tearstained lashes. “Oh, Delly…” she whispered, before subjecting him to a bone-cracking hug. “You always make me feel better!”

“That’s what I’m here for,” Delaware said, grinning. “Now why don’t we go and get something to eat?”

“Okay,” Maryland said quietly, slipping her hand into his. Georgia, California and I waited until they had disappeared from sight before crawling out of our respective corners.

“Oh, man,” California sighed, brushing a few droplets of sweat from his forehead. “That was some hissy fit, huh?”

“She shook me,” I said. “Maryland actually shook me by the shoulders.”

“Not hard,” California laughed, lightly smacking the back of my head. “No offense, dude, but you’re kind of… little.”

“Hey!” I said, smacking him back. Georgia sighed.

“Guys, do we really want to go through this again? After Maryland-”

Our hands froze, mid-smack.

“Maryland,” I said.

“Who’da thought she’d be so… psychotic?” California asked.

“It’s always the quiet ones,” I said, shuddering slightly at the memory of Maryland’s crazed expression.

“Always the quiet ones.”
Maryland's Identity Crisis | Aditi's BlogAditi's Blog
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Tampa
734 posts, read 732,195 times
Reputation: 759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty011 View Post
Oh! Please enlighten me of the differences in rednecks in the regions of this country. Never let it be said that I am unwilling to be educated. I really despise ignorance. Educate me.
I don't know too many "rednecks" in NY who identify with the south, who call northerners "yanks" etc. Do you? I know plenty in MD. Waldorf area, to be specific. Call a redneck in NY a yank and he'd probably beam with pride. Your success rate doing so around Chesapeake Bay will diminish greatly.

But yeah, all rednecks are "the same" because they all wear tanktops and drive pickups, right?

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Old 08-27-2014, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,719 posts, read 36,145,910 times
Reputation: 63325
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat_popsicle View Post
I don't know too many "rednecks" in NY who identify with the south, who call northerners "yanks" etc. Do you? I know plenty in MD. Waldorf area, to be specific.

But yeah, all rednecks are "the same" because they all wear tanktops and drive pickups, right?

There are many different versions of "rednecks" but they're pretty easy to spot. I just got back from northern PA and Ohio and I saw them all over the place.

You don't have to have a confederate flag sticker on the back of your duelly to be a redneck.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:43 PM
 
29,905 posts, read 27,355,630 times
Reputation: 18443
That's a hilarious satirical piece but there's one thing I'd probably change: Georgia thinks Maryland is Northern, while Massachusetts thinks she's Southern. I think that makes more sense.

The writer should do one for West Virginia and Oklahoma too.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,231,676 times
Reputation: 11716
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Geographically NY state is not a "mid Atlantic state." Culturally, it is (I'm taking the consensus of others as fact when I say that because I've never been there). Geography is precise. Sociology is not. And that's OK.
I was referring to NYC. But even the state is considered a Mid-Atlantic state.

Mid-Atlantic states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
But wait...a while back, you accused me of focusing too much on the 1800s! Then when I give you a source from what apparently is the era of Maryland's history that you think defines it's entirety - the 1950s - you don't even acknowledge that.

Very strange.
I didn't accuse you of "focusing too much on the 1800s!" I said that the Civil War wasn't the only historical data point. In other words, Maryland had a southern identity both before and after the Civil War.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Yeah - gotta love those latitudes and longitudes and all that precise sciencey stuff. I'd be the first to point out to you that Ohio falls within the NE quadrant if we were discussing Ohio. And get this (this is the really cool part), Ohio shares some common characteristics of (drum roll please) - THE NORTHEAST. Geographically, it falls within the NE and consequently, though we call it a Midwestern state, it has some NE qualities to it as well! Imagine that.
That's my point. Though it "feels the influences" of a Northeastern state and has some similarities, it aligns itself with the Midwest. Similarly, Maryland aligned itself with the South until a few decades ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Apparently not - since people were writing in to the Maryland State Department of Information back in the 1950s with the same question we're discussing today - "Is Maryland a Southern or Northern state?" and the Maryland State Department of Information couldn't give them a straight answer then either.
I asked you for a historical source stating that Maryland was never a southern state. Historical sources are generally written by historians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I've got all sorts of historical and other sources saying that it's very DEBATABLE. And apparently, this discussion proves that point once again.

Is Baltimore A Southern City | Are we Northern? Southern? Yes. - Page 2 - Baltimore Sun

Which States Are in the South? | FiveThirtyEight

All About Maryland

Where Does the South Begin? - The Atlantic
Did you really just provide a source from Sheppard Software with the header "Kids' Corner"? It would never even occur to me to cite a kiddie educational website.

The rest of your sources address current day Maryland, not Maryland as it existed in the past.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:54 PM
 
Location: One of the 13 original colonies.
10,162 posts, read 6,489,735 times
Reputation: 8022
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat_popsicle View Post
I don't know too many "rednecks" in NY who identify with the south, who call northerners "yanks" etc. Do you? I know plenty in MD. Waldorf area, to be specific. Call a redneck in NY a yank and he'd probably beam with pride. Your success rate doing so around Chesapeake Bay will diminish greatly.

But yeah, all rednecks are "the same" because they all wear tanktops and drive pickups, right?


Oh, I see now. Thanks for enlightenment. The difference between New York rednecks and Maryland or Southern rednecks is they don't call other rednecks from the North yanks. LMAO!!!! Got ya. Thanks for that astonishing revelation. Damn if you don't learn something everyday.
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,719 posts, read 36,145,910 times
Reputation: 63325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
That's a hilarious satirical piece but there's one thing I'd probably change: Georgia thinks Maryland is Northern, while Massachusetts thinks she's Southern. I think that makes more sense.
LOL I agree and actually I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the piece!
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Metro Atlanta & Savannah, GA - Corpus Christi, TX
4,471 posts, read 7,288,883 times
Reputation: 2217
Wow. This thread has added a few pages since I left it. The same things have been said over and over too. I feel for ya, Kathryn. Some people will never get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meat_popsicle View Post
There's a saying in Florida. You have to drive north to visit the south. If you want to speak geographically, sure, Florida is a southern state. But visit any part of it outside the panhandle and come back and tell us that it's "purely" southern, because we'll be here to tell you you're wrong.
Last time I checked, Ocala wasn't in the panhandle. It goes further than just the panhandle. Jacksonville is pretty redneck, too. Heck, there are inland sections by Lake Okeechobee that are quite backwoods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Of course a state can. Maryland used to be part of the South. No more.
Was there some kind of treaty signed specifying that Maryland "secede" from the south? Seriously guy. You should have used another word aside from secede. It's all opinionated, as I stated before. Nothing about this is official. For that matter, some people on here would still consider MD southern. Especially around the Eastern Shore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles View Post
NC is also swelling up with transplants but unlike say GA, whose transplants almost 100% of the time head to Atlanta, NC seems to have new folks all over from Raleigh, the Triad and of course, Charlotte.
I should correct you on this one.. MANY transplants locate to areas outside Atlanta. Including the North GA Mountains and Savannah. None of which are part of Atlanta.
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Tampa
734 posts, read 732,195 times
Reputation: 759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty011 View Post
Oh, I see now. Thanks for enlightenment. The difference between New York rednecks and Maryland or Southern rednecks is they don't call other rednecks from the North yanks. LMAO!!!! Got ya. Thanks for that astonishing revelation. Damn if you don't learn something everyday.
No, it's that they don't identify with the south.

I can post that in another reply in case you didn't read it the first or second time.
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